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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 24, 2020, 09:23am
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Team Control Fouls ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
At one time, there was a reason to have different signals. Now, they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals.
I'm not sure that I follow? I can't speak in regard to NFHS, but IAABO only added the team control foul signal when the NFHS decided not to shoot fouls committed by a team in control. I don't believe that there was a team control foul signal before then (not needed in the rules penalties, i.e., illegal screen, give the blocking foul signal and shoot the free throws if in the bonus). I believe the only change since then has been to add team control to throwins (only for foul purposes).

What was the reason for two different signals, and how were these two fouls treated differently back then (after the rule change (don't shoot)) as opposed to now?

Before the rule change (don't shoot) I don't believe that there was a team control foul signal (not needed in the rules penalties).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 24, 2020 at 09:58am.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 24, 2020, 10:05am
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Are Two Signals Really Needed ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
... they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals. The only difference is that one is committed by the player with the ball and that difference is entirely irrelevant.
I agree with Camron Rust, but are there any Forum members smarter than me (that's almost all Forum members) who can come up with a situation where there is an actual need for two different signals (penalties, blarge, continuous motion, live ball/dead ball, airborne shooters, counting baskets, etc.)?

This is not a fun quiz, I actually can't think of such a situation.

Can we eliminate the player control foul signal without any unintended consequences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
We have about 325 guys on our local board and also have about 325 different player control foul signals.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 24, 2020 at 11:39am.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 24, 2020, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I agree with Camron Rust, but are there any Forum members smarter than me (that's almost all Forum members) who can come up with a situation where there is an actual need for two different signals (penalties, live ball/dead ball, counting baskets, etc.)?



This is not a fun quiz, I actually can't think of such a situation.
Some table personnel aren't very bright and/or observant. Does the team control signal sometimes simply look like the official is pointing the other way?

*shrugs*

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 24, 2020, 11:19am
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Not a real reason

The only thing I can come up with is that player control cancels the shot but team control does not. Not sure why you would need an extra signal -- just waive it off as you report...

On a side note: Many officials in our area (especially vets/college guys) tend to just use the punch for both at the spot and only put the hand behind the head when they report. Of course, they are quick to chastise the newbies when they do the same -- do as I say not as I do!
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 24, 2020, 11:30am
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Dead As A Doornail ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
The only thing I can come up with is that player control cancels the shot but team control does not ...
A team control foul doesn't cancel the shot? Are you sure?

There is no exception (ball does not become dead until the try ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor) for Article 4: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A player-control or team-control foul occurs.

Exceptions (ball does not become dead until the try ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor) are only made for articles 5, 6, 7, and 9.

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 1 A goal, as in 5-1, is made.
ART. 2 It is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a:
a. Free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.
b. Free throw which is to be followed by a throw-in.
ART. 3 A held ball occurs, or the ball lodges between the backboard
and ring or comes to rest on the flange.
ART. 4 A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
ART. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a
below).
ART. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see
exceptions a, b and c below).
ART. 8 A free-throw violation by the throwing team, as in 9-1, occurs.
ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (see exception d
below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or
until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in
flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try
or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred,
provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying
motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in
the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is
completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may
include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when
throwing the ball at his/her basket.
d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.


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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 24, 2020 at 11:41am.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 02:38pm
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So I got another one, and I'm curious how you all would have handled it.

A1 commits a common foul on B1 for team A's 9th foul of the half. The official reports the foul and signals for 2 shots. As he heads opposite table, he signals 2 shots to his partner. When he turns around, the table tries to get his attention that it should be 1-and-1. Partner tells the players 2 shots and bounces the ball to the shooter. Now, the timer is hitting the horn to stop the action, but nobody blows their whistle. B1 takes the shot and misses it. As expected nobody plays the rebound and the ball is given back to L who then looks at what the table wants and discovers the error.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 02:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
So I got another one, and I'm curious how you all would have handled it.

A1 commits a common foul on B1 for team A's 9th foul of the half. The official reports the foul and signals for 2 shots. As he heads opposite table, he signals 2 shots to his partner. When he turns around, the table tries to get his attention that it should be 1-and-1. Partner tells the players 2 shots and bounces the ball to the shooter. Now, the timer is hitting the horn to stop the action, but nobody blows their whistle. B1 takes the shot and misses it. As expected nobody plays the rebound and the ball is given back to L who then looks at what the table wants and discovers the error.
Honestly, it depends. If the officials feel the entire process was altered by the horn, they could say the shot does not count. If they feel nothing was disrupted, then you could go to the AP arrow because of the inaction of the players. I really do not see another way then these two options. This is why we slow down on FTs to make sure we are doing the right thing.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
So I got another one, and I'm curious how you all would have handled it.

A1 commits a common foul on B1 for team A's 9th foul of the half. The official reports the foul and signals for 2 shots. As he heads opposite table, he signals 2 shots to his partner. When he turns around, the table tries to get his attention that it should be 1-and-1. Partner tells the players 2 shots and bounces the ball to the shooter. Now, the timer is hitting the horn to stop the action, but nobody blows their whistle. B1 takes the shot and misses it. As expected nobody plays the rebound and the ball is given back to L who then looks at what the table wants and discovers the error.
That's just poor officiating and game awareness. If the table is hitting the horn prior to us administering a free throw in my game, we are going to stop what we are doing and see what's up.

When I'm crew chief, I explicitly tell the table not to let us do something we're not supposed to be doing (throw-in instead of free throw and vice versa or wrong number of shots).

Remedy for your play is obviously the AP arrow.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 03:03pm
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There's a case play on this, without the table horn. If "no one" reacts, go to the arrow. If "everyone" reacts, play on (or give the ball to whoever got the rebound, if play is then stopped)
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
There's a case play on this, without the table horn. If "no one" reacts, go to the arrow. If "everyone" reacts, play on (or give the ball to whoever got the rebound, if play is then stopped)
This is what I was expecting. I suspect they had JRutledge's thought that the horn was a problem because they re-administered as a 1-and-1.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 03:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
This is why we slow down on FTs to make sure we are doing the right thing.
Which is really my overall point with this thread. We all get in a rush and make mistakes. Sometimes I just get on a roll in what I'm doing and overlook obvious errors. Sometimes, we just need to slow down and pay better attention.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 19, 2020, 04:59pm
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Let's Go To The Videotape ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
There's a case play on this, without the table horn. If "no one" reacts, go to the arrow. If "everyone" reacts, play on (or give the ball to whoever got the rebound, if play is then stopped)
8.6.1 SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that two free throws will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed free throw is rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point. RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be ruled dead immediately and resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue. (2-3; 2-10)
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