What options does a coach have?

[Altor]

Three errors on team-control fouls (well, two errors and a near-error), two different nights. What options does a coach have to get a crew to stop for a second and think things through?

1. A1 has the ball in the backcourt in transition. A2 fouls B3 in the backcourt. Officials line up for a 1-and-1. Coach A gets T's attention and says "Team control" while a couple of assistants give the player-control signal with their hand behind their head. T looks at the bench briefly then goes back to watching the free throws. B3 makes both free throws. Coach A says something to T (now L) again as they come up the floor. He blows the whistle and says "Yes, we're going to talk about it." In the end, they wipe off the free throws and give the ball to B at the designated spot nearest the foul.

The next week:
2. Near the end of the half, A11 fouls B12 while trying to get an offensive rebound. The table signals the 1-and-1 and the official shakes them off. The bench asks for the 1-and-1 and he's told it doesn't apply. They continue with the throw in and the half ends a minute later with a couple baskets made in the meantime. The officials meet at midcourt and have an extended discussion, then go over to the scorer and continue their discussion with her. I wasn't privy, but I got to believe they realized their mistake now that it was too late.

And I believe this because:
3. In 4Q, B23 fouls A24 away from the ball on the offensive end (Team B had control). The non-calling officials walk down to the other end with the ball and start to line up for free throws. The calling official (who was the one who shook off the 1-and-1 in the first half) starts to join them, but then realizes his mistake and clearly says to Coach B "This was definitely a team control foul" and brings the ball back for a throw-in.

So what can a coach do if he knows a mistake is being made, especially on something like free throws to get the crew to slow down and think about things? I put a few search terms in the NFHS online rulebook to see if he could call a time-out for a rules review like in football, and I don't see it.

[johnny d]

Nothing. Hope he gets better officials in the future.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

So what can a coach do if he knows a mistake is being made, especially on something like free throws to get the crew to slow down and think about things?

5-8-4: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official: Responds to the scorer’s signal to grant a coach’s request that a
correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession
mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be
presented at the scorer’s table where a coach of each team may be present.

5-11-4: Only one 60-second time-out is charged (or one 30-second
time-out, if that is the only type of time-out remaining) in 5-8-4 regardless
of the amount of time consumed when no correction is made.
EXCEPTION: No time-out is charged: If, in 5-8-4, the error or mistake is prevented or rectified.

5.8.4 SITUATION A: The appeal of the coach of Team A to an official, made while the ball is dead and the clock is stopped, is made when it is too late for correction of an error. RULING: Following the conference, the 60-second time-out remains charged to Team A and they are given the privilege of utilizing whatever time remains. The official will terminate the discussion with the coach immediately upon making a decision. If the discussion takes more than one minute, only one 60-second time-out is charged. (2-10-2; 5-11-4)

5.8.4 SITUATION B: The head coach from Team A requests a 60-second time-out to rectify a timing error. The referee grants the time-out to investigate the matter, but determines that no correction can be made. The scorer then informs the referee that Team A cannot be charged a 60-second time-out as they only have one 30-second time-out remaining. RULING: Since they have no 60-second time-outs remaining and there was no timing correction made, Team A will be charged their remaining 30-second time-out regardless of the amount of time consumed. (5-11-4)

2-10: Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set
aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
ART. 2 In order to correct any of the officials’ errors listed in Article
1, such error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first
dead ball after the clock has properly started.
ART. 3 If in Article 1e the error is made while the clock is running and
the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live
ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

... errors on team-control fouls ... couple of assistants give the player-control signal with their hand behind their head.

Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.



Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.



Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.

You'd be wrong here in Ohio. PC and TC signal is arm behind the head here.

[Altor]

Billy: Thanks for the rules citations. I don't know how I missed them. So it would have been possible for the coach to call a timeout to slow the crew down. He just risks them still not agreeing with him and losing the timeout.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.

Somebody mentioned that Ohio doesn't use the book signals for this, and it was in Ohio. Note that the head coach did properly use the phrase "team control." I was using those phrases to describe what I saw as best I could using rule book terminology.

Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.

They were.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

So it would have been possible for the coach to call a timeout to slow the crew down. He just risks them still not agreeing with him and losing the timeout.

Bingo.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Wrong signal. It wasn't a player control foul. It was a team control foul and the assistants should have been giving a team control foul signal.



Of course, the officials may not have spotted them anyway, they're supposed to be sitting down.

Not in central Ohio. We give the player control signal on all offensive fouls. It's used as a way to communicate that they're are no free throws.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

You'd be wrong here in Ohio. PC and TC signal is arm behind the head here.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Not in central Ohio. We give the player control signal on all offensive fouls. It's used as a way to communicate that they're are no free throws.

Man, you Ohio guys are really serious about your signals.

Still waiting for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to chime in. I bet he can't wait to yank my chain.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Man, you Ohio guys are really serious about your signals.

Still waiting for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. to chime in. I bet he can't wait to yank my chain.

We're the best! Lol

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Not in central Ohio. We give the player control signal on all offensive fouls. It's used as a way to communicate that they're are no free throws.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

In Oregon, we authorize the team control signal for pc fouls.

At one time, there was a reason to have different signals. Now, they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals. The only difference is that one is committed by the player with the ball and that difference is entirely irrelevant.

We chose the TC signal because it is a much better signal in almost every way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We chose the TC signal because it is a much better signal in almost every way.

We have about 325 guys on our local board and also have about 325 different player control foul signals.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

At one time, there was a reason to have different signals. Now, they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals.

I'm not sure that I follow? I can't speak in regard to NFHS, but IAABO only added the team control foul signal when the NFHS decided not to shoot fouls committed by a team in control. I don't believe that there was a team control foul signal before then (not needed in the rules penalties, i.e., illegal screen, give the blocking foul signal and shoot the free throws if in the bonus). I believe the only change since then has been to add team control to throwins (only for foul purposes).

What was the reason for two different signals, and how were these two fouls treated differently back then (after the rule change (don't shoot)) as opposed to now?

Before the rule change (don't shoot) I don't believe that there was a team control foul signal (not needed in the rules penalties).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... they are treated exactly the same so there is no good reason to have two signals. The only difference is that one is committed by the player with the ball and that difference is entirely irrelevant.

I agree with Camron Rust, but are there any Forum members smarter than me (that's almost all Forum members) who can come up with a situation where there is an actual need for two different signals (penalties, blarge, continuous motion, live ball/dead ball, airborne shooters, counting baskets, etc.)?

This is not a fun quiz, I actually can't think of such a situation.

Can we eliminate the player control foul signal without any unintended consequences?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We have about 325 guys on our local board and also have about 325 different player control foul signals.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I agree with Camron Rust, but are there any Forum members smarter than me (that's almost all Forum members) who can come up with a situation where there is an actual need for two different signals (penalties, live ball/dead ball, counting baskets, etc.)?



This is not a fun quiz, I actually can't think of such a situation.

Some table personnel aren't very bright and/or observant. Does the team control signal sometimes simply look like the official is pointing the other way?

*shrugs*

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk