Communication sitch - Over/back

[mick]

1st half, GV, I'm Trail tableside.

Blue ball in front court.
White bats ball toward division line.
Ball bounces three times in front court and bounces over division line (but not on BC floor).
Running in front court, Blue 14 bats ball to floor in back court.
B14 has one foot in front court and one foot in the air over division line, or back court, when she batted the ball to the back court and then dribbled again.

*Tweet !!!!"*
"Over and Back."

Blue coach, in my back pocket, says, "White touched it!"

Lead came running to me and said there was no violation.

Edited and re-edited for JR:

[Edited by mick on Oct 18th, 2003 at 08:16 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

Lead came running to me and said there was no violation.

Lead's a little out of his primary, isn't he? Whatinthehell is he doing looking at a play at center? And how can he be so sure that there was no violation on this play?

Note:I deleted my post that was above because it was WRONG! Back court violation by blue was the right call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 18th, 2003 at 11:05 PM]

[stan-MI]

"Ball bounces three times in front court and bounces over division line (but not on BC floor)."

If I'm reading this correctly, the ball was in the air and, although over the backcourt, had not touched the floor or any person in the backcourt. If that is the case, the ball still had front court status, and B was the last to touch in the front court, with B in team control, and the first to touch in the back court.

You had the call correct, and your partner screwed things up. I'd explain the rule to your partner, to the coach, and go with the correct call.

[Edited by stan-MI on Oct 18th, 2003 at 09:58 PM]

[BktBallRef]

So what was the final answer?

[KingTripleJump]

it may be just me, but i think you got this one wrong. the violation only happens when the actual item (foot or ball) touches the court. if the ball didn't bounce on the actual court as you stated, then it still has frontcourt possession, even if it's in the air.

now if the blue girl had one foot in the frontcourt and the other in the air over the backcourt but never touched the actual court or line, then she is still in frontcourt possession.

and that would make the play legal.

CASE BOOK p.23 4.4.1 (read here)

[canuckrefguy]

Hmmmmmmmm....

For b/c violation, team must have control, must be last to touch in FC, and first to touch in BC.

Seems to me we only have 1 out of 3 here...

Your partner may have been right.

Anyone else?

[NICK]

The way I read it is violation when "Running in front court, Blue 14 bats ball to floor in back court.
B14 has one foot in front court and one foot in the air over division line, or back court, when she batted the ball to the back court and then dribbled again.

[canuckrefguy]

The violation could only occur when B14 "batted the ball" and it touched the backcourt.

If so, when this occurred, the following 3 things must be true for it to be illegal:

Blue has team control
Blue was last team to touch ball in frontcourt
Blue is first team to touch ball in backcourt

My argument is that:

(1) Blue does not have team control (ball batted away by white therefore no control by either team)

(2) Blue is not last team to touch ball in frontcourt (white was)

If B14 was able to secure control, and while standing in the frontcourt, batted the ball into the backcourt, it is a violation.

If she only batted the ball once into the backcourt, then dribbled, my interpretation is that she didn't have control until she dribbled, therefore no violation.

[Hawks Coach]

It seems that many misunderstand Micks sitch

First, ball is clearly frontcourt.

Second, B has control. W's tap does not alter that.

Third, ball is frontcourt at time B touches - it is over the division line but has touched nothing, and B bats the ball. This makes B last to touch before it went b/c.

Ball hits b/c and B continues dribble - B first to touch after it goes b/c.

Mick had the right call - I'm just wondering what happened.

[rpirtle]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
...My argument is that:

(1) Blue does not have team control (ball batted away by white therefore no control by either team)...

If Blue was dribbling or passing and White "bats the ball away" you have a loose ball. But, by definition, Blue still has team control...dont they? I think Mick made the correct call...but that's just me. I agree that some might have misunderstood the original sitch...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
The violation could only occur when B14 "batted the ball" and it touched the backcourt.

If so, when this occurred, the following 3 things must be true for it to be illegal:

Blue has team control
Blue was last team to touch ball in frontcourt
Blue is first team to touch ball in backcourt

My argument is that:

(1) Blue does not have team control (ball batted away by white therefore no control by either team)

(2) Blue is not last team to touch ball in frontcourt (white was)

If B14 was able to secure control, and while standing in the frontcourt, batted the ball into the backcourt, it is a violation.

If she only batted the ball once into the backcourt, then dribbled, my interpretation is that she didn't have control until she dribbled, therefore no violation.

You're wrong.

RE: your opening statement:
There is no violation when Blue batted the ball,because the ball still had front court status when Blue batted it(it was in the air but had not yet touched in the back court).Blue 14 was also in the front court when she batted it(one foot in the front court and one foot in the air). The batted ball now hits in the back court,giving the ball "back court status". Blue was now the first player to touch the ball after it went into the back court when she started her dribble. Blue had never lost team control because a defensive player had never attained contol by either holding the ball or dribbling it. Viola! Violation- but not until Blue 14 started her dribble!

RE: your other statements:
1)Blue does have team control. Blue had team control in this case, and that team control continues until an opponent secures control(NFHS rule 4-12-3b).The defense doesn't establish player,and thus team control,until they are holding or dribbling a live ball in bounds(NFHS rule 4-12-1). Just touching the ball does not establish player or team control. Finally, NFHS rule 4-12-4 is very explicit- "While the ball remains alive, a loose ball always remains in control of the the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or a tap for goal". NCAA rules are the same.
2)See above!

[mick]

Originally posted by mick
1st half, GV, I'm Trail tableside.

Blue ball in front court.
White bats ball toward division line.
Ball bounces three times in front court and bounces over division line (but not on BC floor).
Running in front court, Blue 14 bats ball to floor in back court.
B14 has one foot in front court and one foot in the air over division line, or back court, when she batted the ball to the back court and then dribbled again.

*Tweet !!!!"*
"Over and Back."

Blue coach, in my back pocket, says, "White touched it!"

Lead came running to me and said there was no violation.

Edited and re-edited for JR:

[Edited by mick on Oct 18th, 2003 at 08:16 PM]

What I did:
In accordance with our pregame

"Feel free to come to me for help. And, if you see me miss one, feel free to come to me. However, if you come to me, be sure, because I will change my call. We will not get into a rules discussion in the middle of a game."

I quickly changed my call and pointed to Blue's direction.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

What I did:
In accordance with our pregame

"Feel free to come to me for help. And, if you see me miss one, feel free to come to me. However, if you come to me, be sure, because I will change my call. We will not get into a rules discussion in the middle of a game."

I quickly changed my call and pointed to Blue's direction.
mick


[/B]

Mick,didn't you know that you had the right call in this sitch, and that the Lead had it wrong? That surprises me that you'd let a wrong call stand for the sake of team unity. Jmo,but I think that a discussion was in order on this one.

Also,there is nowayinhell Lead should have stuck his nose in this one in the first place. He's 45 feet away from the play!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 19th, 2003 at 07:28 AM]

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Mick,didn't you know that you had the right call in this sitch, and that the Lead had it wrong? That surprises me that you'd let a wrong call stand for the sake of team unity. Jmo,but I think that a discussion was in order on this one.

Also,there is nowayinhell Lead should have stuck his nose in this one in the first place. He's 45 feet away from the play!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 19th, 2003 at 07:28 AM] [/B]

JR,
...Because it was pre-gamed.
...Because my partner came so far.
...Because if I stick with my call my partner looks stoopid.
...Because this was one turn-over reversed in the first half.
...Because I am un-emotional.
...Because presence overcame the Rule.

This was a half-time, off the court discussion.

mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Hmmmmmmmm....

For b/c violation, team must have control, must be last to touch in FC, and first to touch in BC.

Seems to me we only have 1 out of 3 here...

Your partner may have been right.

Anyone else?

Which one are we missing?

Ball has FC status.
Team control.
Last to touch in the FC.
First to touch in the BC.

BC violation.