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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 07:51am
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NCAA's "Opposite Table" Rationale

I'm hoping one of you can provide me with a link to or a document detailing the expressed rationale the NCAA stated for when they changed to have the reporting official to go opposite table. I'm not interested in opinions on the mechanic, only the wording with which they stated the need or desire for the change when they instituted it.
Any help? Thanx in advance.
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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 09:27am
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On Oct.28, 2007, Nevada posted this:
It is true that the NCAA is returning to the mechanic of the calling official going opposite the table this coming season.
There were two reasons given for this.
1. The coaches were engaging the officials in too many conversations and it was detracting from the flow and speed of the game.
2. The calling official was mostly becoming the Trail and then the Lead on the subsequent trip, so this official was in the most probable location to make another call. (You have to accept that the Lead official makes most of the calls in the 3-person system for this argument to hold water. That assumption may or may not be true.) It was concluded or perceived that the Center official was not participating very much in the game while the other two officials were making the majority of the calls and simply swapping back and forth. There had to be an off-ball call by the Center to get him into the mix and then the new Center was left out for a while. Right or wrong that is the explanation I was given by the top D-1 guys.

What I'm looking for is whatever rationale they published in the CCA manual or communicated in an NCAA bulleting on the topic back in 2007.
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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 11:59am
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It was stated at the time that they did not want officials having to feel they needed to talk to coaches after fouls. It was expressed in many ways when the change was made. I do not claim to have that evidence at this time but probably could eventually find it somewhere. I used to go to NCAA Meetings at those times as they had one in my backyard.

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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 03:14pm
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As stated, I remember the rationale being that they wanted to reduce interactions with coaches after fouls.

Never heard the one about the Trail & Lead constantly swapping, but I was once part of a HS game in which that actually happened for almost the entire 4th quarter.
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Old Sat Oct 05, 2019, 11:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
On Oct.28, 2007, Nevada posted this:
It is true that the NCAA is returning to the mechanic of the calling official going opposite the table this coming season.
There were two reasons given for this.
1. The coaches were engaging the officials in too many conversations and it was detracting from the flow and speed of the game.
2. The calling official was mostly becoming the Trail and then the Lead on the subsequent trip, so this official was in the most probable location to make another call. (You have to accept that the Lead official makes most of the calls in the 3-person system for this argument to hold water. That assumption may or may not be true.) It was concluded or perceived that the Center official was not participating very much in the game while the other two officials were making the majority of the calls and simply swapping back and forth. There had to be an off-ball call by the Center to get him into the mix and then the new Center was left out for a while. Right or wrong that is the explanation I was given by the top D-1 guys.

What I'm looking for is whatever rationale they published in the CCA manual or communicated in an NCAA bulleting on the topic back in 2007.
The second reason given expresses something I've noticed happens more freqently than many might realize. Video review and tracking fouls more often than expected shows situations where the foul count is, for instance, 12 for one official, 11 for the other, and 5 for the third official. I've been that third official often enough to have sensed this. It's not that that third official was shy to call fouls or was missing fouls that were happening in his area, its just he spent a lot of time as C opposite table from where he had infrequent opportunities to rotate. This mechanic going opposite table after reporting solves that occasions yet real-to-life situation, spreading opportunities more evenly amongst the crew.
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Old Sat Oct 05, 2019, 02:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
The second reason given expresses something I've noticed happens more freqently than many might realize. Video review and tracking fouls more often than expected shows situations where the foul count is, for instance, 12 for one official, 11 for the other, and 5 for the third official. I've been that third official often enough to have sensed this. It's not that that third official was shy to call fouls or was missing fouls that were happening in his area, its just he spent a lot of time as C opposite table from where he had infrequent opportunities to rotate. This mechanic going opposite table after reporting solves that occasions yet real-to-life situation, spreading opportunities more evenly amongst the crew.
I got that information from a D1 guy who has worked two FFs. I can tell you that the NCAA was definitely aware of this issue. I don’t know if they ever publicly stated such in a written memo though.
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Old Sat Oct 05, 2019, 04:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post

On Oct.28, 2007, Nevada posted this:

It is true that the NCAA is returning to the mechanic of the calling official going opposite the table this coming season.
There were two reasons given for this.
1. The coaches were engaging the officials in too many conversations and it was detracting from the flow and speed of the game.
2. The calling official was mostly becoming the Trail and then the Lead on the subsequent trip, so this official was in the most probable location to make another call. (You have to accept that the Lead official makes most of the calls in the 3-person system for this argument to hold water. That assumption may or may not be true.) It was concluded or perceived that the Center official was not participating very much in the game while the other two officials were making the majority of the calls and simply swapping back and forth. There had to be an off-ball call by the Center to get him into the mix and then the new Center was left out for a while. Right or wrong that is the explanation I was given by the top D-1 guys.

What I'm looking for is whatever rationale they published in the CCA manual or communicated in an NCAA bulletin on the topic back in 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post

I got that information from a D1 guy who has worked two FFs. I can tell you that the NCAA was definitely aware of this issue. I don’t know if they ever publicly stated such in a written memo though.


Go to the 10th comment in the following thread regarding a study done by the SEC:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...lege-game.html

MTD, Sr.


P.S. In the pre-rotation days of Three-Person Crews, whoever called a Foul would go Opposite the Table and become the new C.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Sat Oct 05, 2019 at 04:40pm. Reason: Added Post Script.
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Old Sat Oct 05, 2019, 04:47pm
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There was a time when there were no rotations in 3-person mechanics? I'm surprised, because ballside mechanics in 2-person crews have been a feature for a very long time, and 3-person also adopted ballside mechanics.
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Old Sun Oct 06, 2019, 08:36am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
There was a time when there were no rotations in 3-person mechanics? I'm surprised, because ballside mechanics in 2-person crews have been a feature for a very long time, and 3-person also adopted ballside mechanics.
Who said that?

The issue is true (given the assumption that L and T make more foul calls than C) whether there are rotations or not -- it would be worse, I think, if there were no rotations.
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Old Sun Oct 06, 2019, 05:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
There was a time when there were no rotations in 3-person mechanics? I'm surprised, because ballside mechanics in 2-person crews have been a feature for a very long time, and 3-person also adopted ballside mechanics.
Was that in the 80s? I do not remember that time at least when I started officiating.

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Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Go to the 10th comment in the following thread regarding a study done by the SEC:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...lege-game.html

MTD, Sr.


P.S. In the pre-rotation days of Three-Person Crews, whoever called a Foul would go Opposite the Table and become the new C.
What is "pre-rotation days"? Does this mean that L going ballside did not cause the crew to rotate?

Opposite side keeps officials away from the heat after calling fouls, keeps officials engaged by moving a non-involved official to the tableside, and keeps coach-official conversations from slowing down the game.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
There was a time when there were no rotations in 3-person mechanics? I'm surprised, because ballside mechanics in 2-person crews have been a feature for a very long time, and 3-person also adopted ballside mechanics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Was that in the 80s? I do not remember that time at least when I started officiating.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
What is "pre-rotation days"? Does this mean that L going ballside did not cause the crew to rotate?

Opposite side keeps officials away from the heat after calling fouls, keeps officials engaged by moving a non-involved official to the tableside, and keeps coach-official conversations from slowing down the game.

Rotation Mechanics for both NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's was not adopted until the late mid-1990s. My right leg will not allow me to climb up into "the attic" to go through my files to research the exact year(s) that the change was made but I remember attending Phil Bova's Camp in the early 1990s and we were taught Non-Rotation Mechanics.

I officiated the 1993 AAU Women's (which plays using NCAA Women's Rules) National Championship Tournament in April 1993 and the Lithuanian National Women's Team at the Univ. of Cincinnati (NCAA Women's Rules) and the Polish National Men's Team at Cleveland State Univ. (NCAA Men's Rules), both game in November 1993, and we used Non-Rotation Mechanics.

It was, maybe two years, after the 1993-94 season that the NCAA Men's and Women's went to Rotation Mechanics (the NFHS followed one year later if my memory is correct) because I attended a women's camp and the Rotation Mechanics for the CCA Women's Manual was still not set in stone. We were taught that the T, not the L would initiate the Rotation (think of trying to push a rope, ). But I remember that before that season started the Rotation procedure that we now use was adopted.

The positions for Non-Rotation Mechanics were: C was Opposite the Table (OT) with the L and T Table Side (TS). Whoever called a Foul would become the "new" C. If the "old" C was to become the "new" C then the L and T would switch.

So end's today's history lesson.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The positions for Non-Rotation Mechanics were: C was Opposite the Table (OT) with the L and T Table Side (TS). Whoever called a Foul would become the "new" C. If the "old" C was to become the "new" C then the L and T would switch.
For the few three person games that we did back then (and continue to do now), I seem to remember it that way.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s post reminded me that I once officiated the Irish National Women's Team at Saint Joseph's College (West Hartford, CT).

Our assigner back then, a proud Irish American, sent two Irish American officials, with me, a direct paternal descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages, King of Tara in northwestern Ireland in the late 4th century A.D., being selected for the honor.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Oct 25, 2019 at 01:04pm.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 01:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
For the few three person games that we did back then (and continue to do now), I seem to remember it that way.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s post reminded me that I once officiated the Irish National Women's Team at Saint Joseph's College (West Hartford, CT).

Our assigner back then, a proud Irish American, sent two Irish American officials, with me, a direct paternal descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages, King of Tara in northwestern Ireland in the late 4th century A.D., being selected for the honor.

The Polish Nat'l. Men's Team had an official that traveled with the team and officiated the game with us. He was a Civil Engineer whose specialty was Transportation Engineering and he spoke better English than all of us, .

He told his in our pregame that he would handle all communication with the players and coaches because no one spoke English, BUT they all were very well versed in the usage of a word that started with "f" and ended in "k" and all of its variants, .

He was also a chain smoker. CSU provided us with a nice boxed dinner after the game. After that game it took him less than 15 minutes to shower, change into street clothes, grab his dinner and make it to the team's bus so he could grab a smoke.

MTD, Sr.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Fri Oct 25, 2019 at 01:45pm. Reason: Corrected spelling.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 02:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... provided us with a nice boxed dinner after the game.
Irish women presented us with an Irish National Women's Team T-shirt (green, or course) and a shamrock pin. Still have them.

I gave them all miniature American flags.

Also from now on I would like to be addressed as BillyMac, Prince of Tara.

No need for a low bow, just a nod of the head will be appropriate.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Oct 25, 2019 at 05:12pm.
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