LSU v. Florida Video Request - Continuous Motion

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I'm not disagreeing. If this play had been in a HS game, not a college game, there is no way that 3 should have counted. We would have either a ball out of bounds, a 1-1 or 2 shots (depending on foul situation) with the score still 63-60.

If the NCAA rule is the same, and I suspect it is. This is not a made 3 point basket because the foul occurred before the shooter was in his shooting motion. Bad miss by the officials.

The rules on continuous motion are the same at the NCAA level and NF level. I would have made the very same decision at either level. The issue is if they were in the motion when the foul took place. And they have one shot to make that call. I think that was a tough decision either way. I think there is a reasonable debate to make either way. Often the calling official is not the one that sees the motion of the shooter in this situation with clarity.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Often the calling official is not the one that sees the motion of the shooter in this situation with clarity.

Agree. One official is watching the shooter, the other is watching the off ball contact. It's not too much of a stretch to think that one official may not see the other official's foul, and then have to get together and have problems deciding if the off ball foul was before or during the continuous motion of the shooter.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The rules on continuous motion are the same at the NCAA level and NF level. I would have made the very same decision at either level. The issue is if they were in the motion when the foul took place. And they have one shot to make that call. I think that was a tough decision either way. I think there is a reasonable debate to make either way. Often the calling official is not the one that sees the motion of the shooter in this situation with clarity.

Peace

In many instances I can agree with not seeing the foul and the shot, however the way this particular play ended up I find it hard to understand why the officials could in any way conclude the foul happened while the shooter was in his continuous motion. The shooter had to stop his motion and restart to let the fouled player fly by. That might be the first clue to an official even if they didn't see the contact.

The fact the call was so late on the foul is also very questionable. The official doesn't even start to react to the foul until the Florida player who was fouled has his hands on the floor to break his fall. The whistle is even later.

This is a play the NCAA needs to allow to be reviewed no mater what point of the game the situation occurs.

[zm1283]

I saw this play and wanted to see what you guys thought about the timing of it all. I had almost this exact play this year, except the foul was definitely during the continuous motion. I didn't actually call it. I was Lead and my partner at Trail called the foul on the defense as an offensive player was shooting a three pointer. He came to me before he reported anything to make sure he should count the basket, which we did. The coach from the defensive team could not understand how a basket could count since the foul happened before the shot was released.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I saw this play and wanted to see what you guys thought about the timing of it all. I had almost this exact play this year, except the foul was definitely during the continuous motion. I didn't actually call it. I was Lead and my partner at Trail called the foul on the defense as an offensive player was shooting a three pointer. He came to me before he reported anything to make sure he should count the basket, which we did. The coach from the defensive team could not understand how a basket could count since the foul happened before the shot was released.

I've had similar situations, but normally what I've seen is the ball in flight and the foul is on the defense trying to get position for a rebound. They don't understand why the offense gets credit for the basket and gets the ball. Had to eject a hothead from a game over this last season during wRECk ball. He pulled the rule book out to try showing us the rule on the floor while were administering his first T for telling us (and everyone in the gym) how blanking great we were doing. The funniest part is, the player is also a MS coach in the area and I had his team later in the week. He actually apologized and said we were right on the call, but still didn't think he should have been tossed.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?

Originally Posted by Raymond

The whistle.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I haven't looked it up myself yet.

What a wild ride.

[bob jenkins]

Nearly the identical play from the NCAAW Case book:

A.R. 22. A1 sets a legal screen for teammate A2, who has the ball. B1, in trying
to defend the shot, pushes through the screen of A1. When the illegal contact
occurs, A2 has not started her trying motion, but when the official blows the
whistle A2’s trying motion has started. She continues her trying motion and the
ball enters the basket.
RULING: The goal by A2 is scored because when the whistle sounded,
A2 was in the act of shooting and continuous motion applies. If Team
A is not in the bonus, Team A will be awarded the ball for a throw-in
at the out of bounds spot nearest to where the foul occurred. If Team
A is in the bonus, A1 will be awarded two free throws.
Note: The only reference in the rules book to when a "foul occurs"
is when the game clock reads zeroes at the end of a period and the
officials are using a courtside monitor to determine whether the
illegal contact (foul) occurred before the reading of zeroes on the
game clock. Otherwise, the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.
(Rule 2-7.2, 6-5.1.f, 6-6.1, 6-6.2 and 11-3.1.a.3)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jerkins

... the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.

Thanks bob jenkins. Nice citation.

This above is true for NCAA (as was the original post).

Would the ruling be different for NFHS?

NFHS BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS
16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

[deecee]

The foul away from the ball was SO MUCH earlier than the user started his shot. I don't think it's even close.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

The foul away from the ball was SO MUCH earlier than the user started his shot. I don't think it's even close.

It wasn't close, but the whistle was late, and continuous motion had definitely begun by the time the whistle blew.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Nearly the identical play from the NCAAW Case book:

A.R. 22. A1 sets a legal screen for teammate A2, who has the ball. B1, in trying
to defend the shot, pushes through the screen of A1. When the illegal contact
occurs, A2 has not started her trying motion, but when the official blows the
whistle A2’s trying motion has started. She continues her trying motion and the
ball enters the basket.
RULING: The goal by A2 is scored because when the whistle sounded,
A2 was in the act of shooting and continuous motion applies. If Team
A is not in the bonus, Team A will be awarded the ball for a throw-in
at the out of bounds spot nearest to where the foul occurred. If Team
A is in the bonus, A1 will be awarded two free throws.
Note: The only reference in the rules book to when a "foul occurs"
is when the game clock reads zeroes at the end of a period and the
officials are using a courtside monitor to determine whether the
illegal contact (foul) occurred before the reading of zeroes on the
game clock. Otherwise, the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.
(Rule 2-7.2, 6-5.1.f, 6-6.1, 6-6.2 and 11-3.1.a.3)

My source is the husband of a D1 Women's coach (whose team made the NCAA-W's tourney, btw), so maybe that was his citation also. I'll look up the Men's side after my staff meeting.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My source is the husband of a D1 Women's coach (whose team made the NCAA-W's tourney, btw), so maybe that was his citation also. I'll look up the Men's side after my staff meeting.

I just scoured the Men's rule and case books and I cannot find any citation that states the whistle, not the foul itself, is used to determine if continuous motion is in effect.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I just scoured the Men's rule and case books and I cannot find any citation that states the whistle, not the foul itself, is used to determine if continuous motion is in effect.

Is there a rule, or a caseplay, that that states that the foul is used to determine if continuous motion is in effect, without ever mentioning the whistle.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It wasn't close, but the whistle was late, and continuous motion had definitely begun by the time the whistle blew.

Without a rule/case citation I'm not sure here. Are timeouts granted when they are requested or when the whistle is blown?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Are timeouts granted when they are requested or when the whistle is blown?

To answer deecee's specific question, I believe that the timeout is granted when the official "signals" (whistle and open hand) the timeout.

In a more general sense, the clock stopping, and the ball becoming dead, may not be at the same exact time in many circumstances, and may not be at the same time as the whistle.

5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official:
ART. 1 Signals:
a. A foul.
d. A time-out.
ART. 3 Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual
request for a time-out …

6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 4 A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).
ART. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see
exceptions a, b and c below).
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or
until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try
or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred,
provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying
motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in
the player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is
completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may
include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when
throwing the ball at his/her basket.

NFHS Basketball Rules Fundamentals
16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).