LSU v. Florida Video Request - Continuous Motion

[BillyMac]

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?

(For both NFHS and NCAA.)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?



(For both NFHS and NCAA.)

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

If this it happens near the end of the game or at the end of a shot clock, monitor review would use the time of illegal contact to set the game clock, but you can't change the the determination of continuous motion even with replay showing the illegal contact started before the act of shooting.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

That may be how it often works out in practice when two different officials are combining information, but the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That may be how it often works out in practice when two different officials are combining information, but the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

I agree. This was a situation where a quirk in the rules and a late whistle by the official changed the entire flow of the game.

To me the foul is clearly before the shooter begins the act of shooting. In fact to me the foul actually occurs simultaneous with the catch of the ball by the shooter behind his left shoulder. The shooter then goes into what would have been the start of the shooting motion before he has to stop and restart that motion due to his team mate flying across in front of him.

The other thing I'm not sure about was the two whistles. Did the same official blow the whistle twice, or were there two late whistles on the play, possible one from the lead after seeing the contact before the center makes the call late.

To me this is something that should be reviewable to make sure the call is correct without consideration to the time left in the game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's used for the determination of continuous motion, the actual foul, or the whistle for the foul?

Originally Posted by Raymond

The whistle.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

the rule is the foul itself, not the whistle that determines continuous motion.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I haven't looked it up myself yet.

What a wild ride.

[bob jenkins]

Nearly the identical play from the NCAAW Case book:

A.R. 22. A1 sets a legal screen for teammate A2, who has the ball. B1, in trying
to defend the shot, pushes through the screen of A1. When the illegal contact
occurs, A2 has not started her trying motion, but when the official blows the
whistle A2’s trying motion has started. She continues her trying motion and the
ball enters the basket.
RULING: The goal by A2 is scored because when the whistle sounded,
A2 was in the act of shooting and continuous motion applies. If Team
A is not in the bonus, Team A will be awarded the ball for a throw-in
at the out of bounds spot nearest to where the foul occurred. If Team
A is in the bonus, A1 will be awarded two free throws.
Note: The only reference in the rules book to when a "foul occurs"
is when the game clock reads zeroes at the end of a period and the
officials are using a courtside monitor to determine whether the
illegal contact (foul) occurred before the reading of zeroes on the
game clock. Otherwise, the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.
(Rule 2-7.2, 6-5.1.f, 6-6.1, 6-6.2 and 11-3.1.a.3)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jerkins

... the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.

Thanks bob jenkins. Nice citation.

This above is true for NCAA (as was the original post).

Would the ruling be different for NFHS?

NFHS BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS
16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

[deecee]

The foul away from the ball was SO MUCH earlier than the user started his shot. I don't think it's even close.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I haven't looked it up myself yet. I agree with you, but someone I trust said it goes by the whistle and that it is an NCAA quirk in the rules.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Nearly the identical play from the NCAAW Case book:

A.R. 22. A1 sets a legal screen for teammate A2, who has the ball. B1, in trying
to defend the shot, pushes through the screen of A1. When the illegal contact
occurs, A2 has not started her trying motion, but when the official blows the
whistle A2’s trying motion has started. She continues her trying motion and the
ball enters the basket.
RULING: The goal by A2 is scored because when the whistle sounded,
A2 was in the act of shooting and continuous motion applies. If Team
A is not in the bonus, Team A will be awarded the ball for a throw-in
at the out of bounds spot nearest to where the foul occurred. If Team
A is in the bonus, A1 will be awarded two free throws.
Note: The only reference in the rules book to when a "foul occurs"
is when the game clock reads zeroes at the end of a period and the
officials are using a courtside monitor to determine whether the
illegal contact (foul) occurred before the reading of zeroes on the
game clock. Otherwise, the whistle normally blows so close to when
the foul occurs that there is not enough of a separation to determine
a difference. By rule, the whistle is sounded when a foul occurs and
the ball becomes dead when the whistle sounds, unless at the time
the whistle is sounded a try is in flight or continuous motion applies.
(Rule 2-7.2, 6-5.1.f, 6-6.1, 6-6.2 and 11-3.1.a.3)

My source is the husband of a D1 Women's coach (whose team made the NCAA-W's tourney, btw), so maybe that was his citation also. I'll look up the Men's side after my staff meeting.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My source is the husband of a D1 Women's coach (whose team made the NCAA-W's tourney, btw), so maybe that was his citation also. I'll look up the Men's side after my staff meeting.

I just scoured the Men's rule and case books and I cannot find any citation that states the whistle, not the foul itself, is used to determine if continuous motion is in effect.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The whistle. Since the whistle occurred after the shooting motion started, the foul is considered during continuous motion.

If this it happens near the end of the game or at the end of a shot clock, monitor review would use the time of illegal contact to set the game clock, but you can't change the the determination of continuous motion even with replay showing the illegal contact started before the act of shooting.

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This is not consistent within the NFHS rules (unless they clarified from the book I'm looking at which isn't the current book), due to inconsistency within the NFHS rules.


There are two parts to the rule about a dead ball that are important.

Dead ball: The ball becomes dead

Article 5 : An officials whistle is blown (see exception a)

Article 7: A foul, other than a player or team control foul occurs. (exceptions a,b,c)

Exceptions: A: when a try or tap for goal is in FLIGHT.

Exceptions: B: (article 7) occurs by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting), the trying motion must be continuous .......


To me these are inconsistent with each other. Also, the key word is the trying motion by be continuous. In this case, the trying motion wasn't a continuous motion as he stopped the motion to let his team mate fly by after he was fouled.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

... the NFHS rules ...

NFHS BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

BASKETBALL RULES FUNDAMENTALS

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

I'm not disagreeing. If this play had been in a HS game, not a college game, there is no way that 3 should have counted. We would have either a ball out of bounds, a 1-1 or 2 shots (depending on foul situation) with the score still 63-60.

If the NCAA rule is the same, and I suspect it is. This is not a made 3 point basket because the foul occurred before the shooter was in his shooting motion. Bad miss by the officials.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I'm not disagreeing. If this play had been in a HS game, not a college game, there is no way that 3 should have counted. We would have either a ball out of bounds, a 1-1 or 2 shots (depending on foul situation) with the score still 63-60.

If the NCAA rule is the same, and I suspect it is. This is not a made 3 point basket because the foul occurred before the shooter was in his shooting motion. Bad miss by the officials.

The rules on continuous motion are the same at the NCAA level and NF level. I would have made the very same decision at either level. The issue is if they were in the motion when the foul took place. And they have one shot to make that call. I think that was a tough decision either way. I think there is a reasonable debate to make either way. Often the calling official is not the one that sees the motion of the shooter in this situation with clarity.

Peace