Wrong number

[UNIgiantslayers]

Why did you ask this question? You've had multiple people tell you that it needs to be penalized and cited the rules reference that applies. If you weren't going to take the (correct) answers from this forum, why ask?

[BillyMac]

Home scorebook says (even though first names were submitted on time):
#22 Smith
#23 Smith

Is the home scorekeeper required to list first names?

2-11: The scorer shall: Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to
start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.

Is the home scorekeeper required to list nonstarter names, or names of players that don't play?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Home scorebook says (these are the names and numbers that were submitted on time):
#22 Smith, John
#23 Smith, Michael

John is actually wearing #23 and Mike is actually wearing #22.

Neither has played. Both are on the bench when the error is discovered three minutes into the game. You make the call.

Mike has played. Both are on the bench when the error is discovered three minutes into the game. You make the call.

Mike is in the game when the error is discovered three minutes into the game. You make the call.

ther's a case play or interp to the effect that "if the player is not in the game, and hasn't scored or committed a foul, then the scorebook does not need to be changed and no T is assessed." Some would argue that the interp is incorrect, but it's what we have, for now, in FED.

Use that to answer the above.

And, even if the players somehow have the exact same name, then there needs to be some other way to identify the correct player.

or, we could worrya bout something that might reasonably happen.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... there's a case play or interp to the effect that "if the player is not in the game, and hasn't scored or committed a foul, then the scorebook does not need to be changed and no T is assessed."

Sounds reasonable. I would like to see the interpretation or the caseplay.

[BillyMac]

Note: This is for an illegal number, not a wrong number.

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)

[northbendon]

That’s what I was looking for !!
Thanks Billy


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[BillyMac]

3.2.2 SITUATION B: Three minutes before the game starts, it is discovered: (a) two Team B members have wrong numbers in the scorebook; or (b) two Team B team members are wearing the same number. RULING: In (a), if either or both team member’s number is changed in the scorebook, one technical foul is charged to Team B. If there is no request for change or if neither becomes a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty. In (b), a technical foul is charged to Team B upon discovery of the identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating. (10-1-2)

Note: This (below) is for a number added, not a wrong number.

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Home scorebook says (these are the names and numbers that were submitted on time):
#22 Smith, John
#23 Smith, Michael

John is actually wearing #23 and Mike is actually wearing #22.

Neither has played. Both are on the bench when the error is discovered three minutes into the game. You make the call. Nothing

Mike has played. Both are on the bench when the error is discovered three minutes into the game. You make the call. Nothing.

Mike is in the game when the error is discovered three minutes into the game. You make the call.Technical foul.

Correct?

[BryanV21]

Simply put, if the book has to be changed it's a technical foul. But if no change is necessary then no foul.

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Nothing. Both numbers are in the book and both numbers have the same last name annotated next to them.

Should have had a T before the ball became live for not having the correct starter marked.

Dead wrong for NFHS.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION B: Three minutes before the game starts, it is discovered: (a) two Team B members have wrong numbers in the scorebook; or (b) two Team B team members are wearing the same number. RULING: In (a), if either or both team member’s number is changed in the scorebook, one technical foul is charged to Team B. If there is no request for change or if neither becomes a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty. In (b), a technical foul is charged to Team B upon discovery of the identical numbers. Only one team member may wear a given number; the other must change to a number not already in use before participating. (10-1-2)

Note: This (below) is for a number added, not a wrong number.

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)

The part b ruling in the second case book play listed above is incorrect and as bad as the infamous backcourt interp.

Why? The kid participated. By rule, he must be in the book. The scorer is required to track all players and substitutes who enter.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The part b ruling in the second case book play listed above is incorrect and as bad as the infamous backcourt interp.

Why? The kid participated. By rule, he must be in the book. The scorer is required to track all players and substitutes who enter.

Just to add to that, many states have a limit of quarters played/day. In Ohio it is 5. So if that player played 3 qtrs. in the JV game, the one minute he played in the 2nd quarter of the varsity game has to be accounted for as his/her 4th qtr. of the day. The only way to do that would be to add the name to the book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The part b ruling in the second case book play listed above is incorrect ... The kid participated. By rule, he must be in the book. The scorer is required to track all players and substitutes who enter.

Required, but sometimes mistakes are made.

Timekeeper let's in substitute #25 which isn't noticed by the scorekeeper? This is more likely to happen if #25 never scores or is charged with a foul.

Scorekeeper notices #25 but decides to inform the officials at the next intermission, when all team members are bench personnel?

Scorekeeper notices but adds #25 unilaterally, without informing the officials until the next dead ball?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Required, but sometimes mistakes are made.

Timekeeper let's in substitute #25 which isn't noticed by the scorekeeper? This is more likely to happen if #25 never scores or is charged with a foul.

Scorekeeper notices #25 but decides to inform the officials at the next intermission, when all team members are bench personnel?

Scorekeeper notices but adds #25 unilaterally, without informing the officials until the next dead ball?

A. This is precisely why the scorer is to track each entering substitute. This is done by checking off the box for that qtr in the book on that player’s line. If the scorer doesn’t do this he isn’t doing his job. Doesn’t mean that the team hasn’t committed an infraction, just that the scorer failed to notice it because he isn’t doing what is required by rule.

B. The rule states exactly when the scorer is to notify the officials. Again a case of the scorer not doing his job properly. Could even be a scorer attempting to cheat for one team. The team still committed an infraction and this is an example of why the rules are written as they are.

C. You have a scorer who is either clueless or a cheater. Either way this doesn’t excuse the team’s infraction.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is precisely why the scorer is to track each entering substitute. This is done by checking off the box for that qtr in the book on that player’s line. If the scorer doesn’t do this he isn’t doing his job. Doesn’t mean that the team hasn’t committed an infraction, just that the scorer failed to notice it because he isn’t doing what is required by rule.

The caseplay is based on a series of errors.

#25 wasn't listed on the roster that was submitted pregame (assuming that it wasn't a copying error).

Then the scorekeeper doesn't notice and/or doesn't inform the officials in a timely manner that #25 isn't "in the book".

The caseplay tells us how to handle the roster submission error (assuming that it wasn't a copying error) by one team and the error of the untimely notification to the officials by the scorekeeper.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)