The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 23, 2019, 08:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11
Three-point attempt at clock expiration hits floor; bounces through basket

Down by two points, team A has the ball at their own endline with two seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 inbounds the ball fully into the backcourt where player A2 runs to catch it. A2 catches the ball and turns to heave up an almost-full-court shot. The ball is well short of the target and bounces off the floor and then goes through the ring just before the buzzer sounds.

Does the basket count? If so, is team A awarded two or three points? What if the buzzer had sounded before the ball bounced?

This actually happened to an official in the Utah Wasatch Chapter in a game last week. Talk about once-in-a-lifetime...
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 23, 2019, 08:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,957
If ball has passed through the hoop after the bounce but before the horn sounds, it counts for two points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
If you ain't first, you're LAST!!!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 04:41am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
How Many Points ...

No game clock issue here. B1 is closely guarding point guard A1. A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, also standing behind Team A's three point line, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player.

Quiz for the young'uns. How many points?

Extra credit. No game clock issue here. Point guard A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, standing inside Team A's three point line at the elbow, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player. How many points?
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 24, 2019 at 04:59am.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 04:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhistlesAndStripes View Post
If ball has passed through the hoop after the bounce but before the horn sounds, it counts for two points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct, and to answer the follow-up question about if the horn sounds prior to the ball going through the basket, it doesnít count as it is no longer a try for goal once it has struck the floor.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 04:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
No game clock issue here. B1 is closely guarding point guard A1. A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B2, also standing behind Team A's three point line, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player. How many points?
Two. The thrown ball had no chance to enter the basket on its own prior to the deflection off the defenderís shoulder.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 04:57am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
No game clock issue here. B1 is closely guarding point guard A1. A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, also standing behind Team A's three point line, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Two. The thrown ball had no chance to enter the basket on its own prior to the deflection off the defender’s shoulder.
5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area ... The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

When the three point line was first painted on the court, Nevadaref may have been correct, if fact, if the official ruled it was a pass and not a try and if the pass went directly into the basket, never touching anybody else, it was only two points. That interpretation was quickly changed.

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

Now try the extra credit question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Extra credit. No game clock issue here. Point guard A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, standing inside Team A's three point line at the elbow, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player. How many points?
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 24, 2019 at 05:07am.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 07:08am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
Something Else ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Two. The thrown ball had no chance to enter the basket on its own prior to the deflection off the defender’s shoulder.
I may be wrong because I've never dealt with this specific question before, but I believe that the one and only time officials have to rule on whether or not a ball has a chance to go into basket is in regard to a try/goaltending.

I'm spitballing here by saying "one and only" but I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong and we'll all learn something.

In a slightly related topic, regarding released buzzer beating shots, officials will have to rule whether a throw is a try, or something else that's not a try.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 12:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I may be wrong because I've never dealt with this specific question before, but I believe that the one and only time officials have to rule on whether or not a ball has a chance to go into basket is in regard to a try/goaltending.

I'm spitballing here by saying "one and only" but I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong and we'll all learn something.
This case illustrates that it is two points...
Quote:
4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)
The cases you cited above have to do with judging intent...not required to determine if 2 or 3. If the player throws it to the basket and it goes in, we count it as 3. However, that is only if the player throws it at the basket. A defensive touch doesn't change that. However, if the player doesn't throw it at the basket, a defensive touch that redirects it to the basket doesn't make it a 3.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 12:15pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
Follow The Bouncing Ball ...

(Young'uns can check it out on the Google.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodros_nemesis View Post
The ball is well short of the target and bounces off the floor and then goes through the ring just before the buzzer sounds. Talk about once-in-a-lifetime ...
I almost had my once in a lifetime play yesterday in a girls middle school game. Not a game clock issue. I was the trail and ended up being straightlined, but it appeared that the player grabbed an offensive rebound and either lost control pulling down the rebound, or tried a power dribble, in either case the ball bounced off the floor all the way up to the basket and then bounced off the rim.

I could hear a murmur going through the crowd of parents.

Interestingly, there was some contact there, but my young partner passed on making a call (probably correct from my poor vantage point).

No fifteen minutes of fame in BillyMac's game. Thirty-eight years and that's the closest it's ever been for me.

I did once have a player attempt a shot from the floor (pass, shoot, start a dribble, or request a timeout situation). He missed. BillyMac. Always a day late or a dollar short.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 12:41pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
Confused In Connecticut ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If the player throws it to the basket and it goes in, we count it as 3. However, that is only if the player throws it at the basket. A defensive touch doesn't change that. However, if the player doesn't throw it at the basket, a defensive touch that redirects it to the basket doesn't make it a 3.
Nice citation Camron Rust. Thank you.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

4.41.4 B doesn't indicate where A2 or B1 may have been standing. I'm especially interested in knowing where B1 was standing, my citations below don't seem to care whether, or not, B1 was behind the arc, or not.

5-2 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player
who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three
points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official,
or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose
basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area;[/COLOR][/B] (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.


My three citations above refer to a "thrown ball", not necessarily a shot attempt, and not necessarily (in two of my three citations) thrown toward the basket.

I am certain that the rule in place when the three point line was first painted on the floor stipulated a shot, but that it was changed to any thrown ball (I also believe it wasn't necessary to be thrown toward the basket, but that's what we're debating here).

I couldn't sleep last night, so I did some research, the one and only time officials have to rule on whether or not a ball has a chance to go into basket is in regard to a try/goaltending.

Look forward to your reply and to getting this straightened out soon.

As usual, it's very likely that I'm wrong, or that the NFHS has made it difficult to show that I'm wrong.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 24, 2019 at 01:22pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 01:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Nice citation Camron Rust. Thank you.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1ís three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

4.41.4 B doesn't indicate where A2 or B1 may have been standing. I'm especially interested in knowing where B1 was standing, my citations below don't seem to care whether, or not, B1 was behind the arc, or not.

...

My three citations above refer to a "thrown ball", not necessarily a shot attempt, and not necessarily (in two of my three citations) thrown toward the basket.

I am certain that the rule in place when the three point line was first painted on the floor stipulated a shot, but that it was changed to any thrown ball (I also believe it wasn't necessary to be thrown toward the basket, but that's what we're debating here).

You have to go back to when the rule was changed. Originally, we had to judge try or not and award 3 or 2. This was on an uncomplicated throw. There was never a question about a ball thrown into the post or elsewhere (but not at the basket) that was deflected up and into the basket. It was always two.

Rather than judge intent, they changed the rule to judge based on observable actions....the ball was thrown from behind the arc and it goes it...all without complications. It is easily observable whether the thrower was throwing the ball at the basket or not....we don't have to determine why, just that it was throw there.

Now, introduce a defender trying to block the try/throw. That doesn't change anything. If the thrower is throwing the ball at the basket and a defender touches it, count it as 3. However, 4.41.4B tells us that when the throw (a try is just a throw with intent) is no longer on a trajectory to go in, it can no longer be a 3 if it is subsequently redirected to the basket.

The whole point of this rule, again, is to remove the need to judge intent. It was never meant to make something that was clearly not a shot into 3 points.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 02:01pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
Observable Actions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You have to go back to when the rule was changed. Originally, we had to judge try or not and award 3 or 2. This was on an uncomplicated throw. There was never a question about a ball thrown into the post or elsewhere (but not at the basket) that was deflected up and into the basket. It was always two.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Rather than judge intent, they changed the rule to judge based on observable actions....the ball was thrown from behind the arc and it goes it...all without complications. It is easily observable whether the thrower was throwing the ball at the basket or not....we don't have to determine why, just that it was throw there. The whole point of this rule, again, is to remove the need to judge intent. It was never meant to make something that was clearly not a shot into 3 points.
Disagree, and unfortunately, I wasn't keeping my old books from that era. I honestly don't remember any such mention of "observable actions" by the NFHS when the rule was changed.

Now, where are my car keys?

Other opinions please.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 24, 2019 at 02:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 02:09pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Nice citation Camron Rust. Thank you.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1ís three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

4.41.4 B doesn't indicate where A2 or B1 may have been standing. I'm especially interested in knowing where B1 was standing, my citations below don't seem to care whether, or not, B1 was behind the arc, or not.

....
That tells me the ball made it to an area near the basket.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 02:14pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 17,715
Citations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That tells me the ball made it to an area near the basket.
Which exactly why I was referring to the other two citations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... not necessarily (in two of my three citations) thrown toward the basket.
The other two citations make no mention of toward the basket.

I agree with Camron Rust that the question here is in the intent of the rule when it was changed. We disagree on that aspect.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 24, 2019 at 02:17pm.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2019, 02:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You have to go back to when the rule was changed. Originally, we had to judge try or not and award 3 or 2. This was on an uncomplicated throw. There was never a question about a ball thrown into the post or elsewhere (but not at the basket) that was deflected up and into the basket. It was always two.

Rather than judge intent, they changed the rule to judge based on observable actions....the ball was thrown from behind the arc and it goes it...all without complications. It is easily observable whether the thrower was throwing the ball at the basket or not....we don't have to determine why, just that it was throw there.

Now, introduce a defender trying to block the try/throw. That doesn't change anything. If the thrower is throwing the ball at the basket and a defender touches it, count it as 3. However, 4.41.4B tells us that when the throw (a try is just a throw with intent) is no longer on a trajectory to go in, it can no longer be a 3 if it is subsequently redirected to the basket.

The whole point of this rule, again, is to remove the need to judge intent. It was never meant to make something that was clearly not a shot into 3 points.
The rule was changed because of the prevalence of the "alley-oop" play. If the throw doesn't resemble that (even if another offensive player isn't there), or if the throw then ceases to have a (liberally interpreted) chance to enter the basket--for instance it falls below the height of the rim and hit a player in the shoulder, then just count two points.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
dead ball, expiration

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Three (3) point attempt made, then changed to a 2 point goal johnny1784 Basketball 24 Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:25am
Ball hits rubber - bounces kono Softball 28 Thu Apr 17, 2008 07:55am
3-point attempt observer Basketball 11 Wed Feb 13, 2008 07:42pm
Shot attempt or on the floor?? SeanFitzRef Basketball 10 Wed Feb 01, 2006 09:10pm
Shot clock expiration/throw-in spot TriggerMN Basketball 3 Fri Jan 23, 2004 02:33pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:02am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1