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-   -   Three-point attempt at clock expiration hits floor; bounces through basket (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104317-three-point-attempt-clock-expiration-hits-floor-bounces-through-basket.html)

goodros_nemesis Wed Jan 23, 2019 08:04pm

Three-point attempt at clock expiration hits floor; bounces through basket
 
Down by two points, team A has the ball at their own endline with two seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 inbounds the ball fully into the backcourt where player A2 runs to catch it. A2 catches the ball and turns to heave up an almost-full-court shot. The ball is well short of the target and bounces off the floor and then goes through the ring just before the buzzer sounds.

Does the basket count? If so, is team A awarded two or three points? What if the buzzer had sounded before the ball bounced?

This actually happened to an official in the Utah Wasatch Chapter in a game last week. Talk about once-in-a-lifetime...

WhistlesAndStripes Wed Jan 23, 2019 08:06pm

If ball has passed through the hoop after the bounce but before the horn sounds, it counts for two points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 04:41am

How Many Points ...
 
No game clock issue here. B1 is closely guarding point guard A1. A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, also standing behind Team A's three point line, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player.

Quiz for the young'uns. How many points?

Extra credit. No game clock issue here. Point guard A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, standing inside Team A's three point line at the elbow, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player. How many points?

Nevadaref Thu Jan 24, 2019 04:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhistlesAndStripes (Post 1029209)
If ball has passed through the hoop after the bounce but before the horn sounds, it counts for two points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct, and to answer the follow-up question about if the horn sounds prior to the ball going through the basket, it doesnít count as it is no longer a try for goal once it has struck the floor.

Nevadaref Thu Jan 24, 2019 04:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029224)
No game clock issue here. B1 is closely guarding point guard A1. A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B2, also standing behind Team A's three point line, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player. How many points?

Two. The thrown ball had no chance to enter the basket on its own prior to the deflection off the defenderís shoulder.

BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 04:57am

Citation ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029224)
No game clock issue here. B1 is closely guarding point guard A1. A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, also standing behind Team A's three point line, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1029226)
Two. The thrown ball had no chance to enter the basket on its own prior to the deflection off the defender’s shoulder.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area ... The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

When the three point line was first painted on the court, Nevadaref may have been correct, if fact, if the official ruled it was a pass and not a try and if the pass went directly into the basket, never touching anybody else, it was only two points. That interpretation was quickly changed.

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

Now try the extra credit question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029224)
Extra credit. No game clock issue here. Point guard A1, from behind his three point line, attempts to pass to post player A2. Pass hits B1, standing inside Team A's three point line at the elbow, on his shoulder and bounces into the air, ball enters Team A's basket from above, never having hit the floor, or any other player. How many points?


BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 07:08am

Something Else ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1029226)
Two. The thrown ball had no chance to enter the basket on its own prior to the deflection off the defender’s shoulder.

I may be wrong because I've never dealt with this specific question before, but I believe that the one and only time officials have to rule on whether or not a ball has a chance to go into basket is in regard to a try/goaltending.

I'm spitballing here by saying "one and only" but I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong and we'll all learn something.

In a slightly related topic, regarding released buzzer beating shots, officials will have to rule whether a throw is a try, or something else that's not a try.

Camron Rust Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029228)
I may be wrong because I've never dealt with this specific question before, but I believe that the one and only time officials have to rule on whether or not a ball has a chance to go into basket is in regard to a try/goaltending.

I'm spitballing here by saying "one and only" but I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong and we'll all learn something.

This case illustrates that it is two points...
Quote:

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)
The cases you cited above have to do with judging intent...not required to determine if 2 or 3. If the player throws it to the basket and it goes in, we count it as 3. However, that is only if the player throws it at the basket. A defensive touch doesn't change that. However, if the player doesn't throw it at the basket, a defensive touch that redirects it to the basket doesn't make it a 3.

BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:15pm

Follow The Bouncing Ball ...
 
(Young'uns can check it out on the Google.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodros_nemesis (Post 1029208)
The ball is well short of the target and bounces off the floor and then goes through the ring just before the buzzer sounds. Talk about once-in-a-lifetime ...

I almost had my once in a lifetime play yesterday in a girls middle school game. Not a game clock issue. I was the trail and ended up being straightlined, but it appeared that the player grabbed an offensive rebound and either lost control pulling down the rebound, or tried a power dribble, in either case the ball bounced off the floor all the way up to the basket and then bounced off the rim.

I could hear a murmur going through the crowd of parents.

Interestingly, there was some contact there, but my young partner passed on making a call (probably correct from my poor vantage point).

No fifteen minutes of fame in BillyMac's game. Thirty-eight years and that's the closest it's ever been for me.

I did once have a player attempt a shot from the floor (pass, shoot, start a dribble, or request a timeout situation). He missed. BillyMac. Always a day late or a dollar short.

BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:41pm

Confused In Connecticut ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1029234)
If the player throws it to the basket and it goes in, we count it as 3. However, that is only if the player throws it at the basket. A defensive touch doesn't change that. However, if the player doesn't throw it at the basket, a defensive touch that redirects it to the basket doesn't make it a 3.

Nice citation Camron Rust. Thank you.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

4.41.4 B doesn't indicate where A2 or B1 may have been standing. I'm especially interested in knowing where B1 was standing, my citations below don't seem to care whether, or not, B1 was behind the arc, or not.

5-2 A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player
who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three
points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official,
or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose
basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION B: With 2:45 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes a backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball, however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5. RULING: Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area;[/COLOR][/B] (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.


My three citations above refer to a "thrown ball", not necessarily a shot attempt, and not necessarily (in two of my three citations) thrown toward the basket.

I am certain that the rule in place when the three point line was first painted on the floor stipulated a shot, but that it was changed to any thrown ball (I also believe it wasn't necessary to be thrown toward the basket, but that's what we're debating here).

I couldn't sleep last night, so I did some research, the one and only time officials have to rule on whether or not a ball has a chance to go into basket is in regard to a try/goaltending.

Look forward to your reply and to getting this straightened out soon.

As usual, it's very likely that I'm wrong, or that the NFHS has made it difficult to show that I'm wrong.

Camron Rust Thu Jan 24, 2019 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029237)
Nice citation Camron Rust. Thank you.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1ís three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

4.41.4 B doesn't indicate where A2 or B1 may have been standing. I'm especially interested in knowing where B1 was standing, my citations below don't seem to care whether, or not, B1 was behind the arc, or not.

...

My three citations above refer to a "thrown ball", not necessarily a shot attempt, and not necessarily (in two of my three citations) thrown toward the basket.

I am certain that the rule in place when the three point line was first painted on the floor stipulated a shot, but that it was changed to any thrown ball (I also believe it wasn't necessary to be thrown toward the basket, but that's what we're debating here).


You have to go back to when the rule was changed. Originally, we had to judge try or not and award 3 or 2. This was on an uncomplicated throw. There was never a question about a ball thrown into the post or elsewhere (but not at the basket) that was deflected up and into the basket. It was always two.

Rather than judge intent, they changed the rule to judge based on observable actions....the ball was thrown from behind the arc and it goes it...all without complications. It is easily observable whether the thrower was throwing the ball at the basket or not....we don't have to determine why, just that it was throw there.

Now, introduce a defender trying to block the try/throw. That doesn't change anything. If the thrower is throwing the ball at the basket and a defender touches it, count it as 3. However, 4.41.4B tells us that when the throw (a try is just a throw with intent) is no longer on a trajectory to go in, it can no longer be a 3 if it is subsequently redirected to the basket.

The whole point of this rule, again, is to remove the need to judge intent. It was never meant to make something that was clearly not a shot into 3 points.

BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 02:01pm

Observable Actions ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1029251)
You have to go back to when the rule was changed. Originally, we had to judge try or not and award 3 or 2. This was on an uncomplicated throw. There was never a question about a ball thrown into the post or elsewhere (but not at the basket) that was deflected up and into the basket. It was always two.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1029251)
Rather than judge intent, they changed the rule to judge based on observable actions....the ball was thrown from behind the arc and it goes it...all without complications. It is easily observable whether the thrower was throwing the ball at the basket or not....we don't have to determine why, just that it was throw there. The whole point of this rule, again, is to remove the need to judge intent. It was never meant to make something that was clearly not a shot into 3 points.

Disagree, and unfortunately, I wasn't keeping my old books from that era. I honestly don't remember any such mention of "observable actions" by the NFHS when the rule was changed.

Now, where are my car keys?

Other opinions please.

Raymond Thu Jan 24, 2019 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029237)
Nice citation Camron Rust. Thank you.

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1ís three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

4.41.4 B doesn't indicate where A2 or B1 may have been standing. I'm especially interested in knowing where B1 was standing, my citations below don't seem to care whether, or not, B1 was behind the arc, or not.

....

That tells me the ball made it to an area near the basket.

BillyMac Thu Jan 24, 2019 02:14pm

Citations ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1029257)
That tells me the ball made it to an area near the basket.

Which exactly why I was referring to the other two citations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029237)
... not necessarily (in two of my three citations) thrown toward the basket.

The other two citations make no mention of toward the basket.

I agree with Camron Rust that the question here is in the intent of the rule when it was changed. We disagree on that aspect.

bob jenkins Thu Jan 24, 2019 02:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1029251)
You have to go back to when the rule was changed. Originally, we had to judge try or not and award 3 or 2. This was on an uncomplicated throw. There was never a question about a ball thrown into the post or elsewhere (but not at the basket) that was deflected up and into the basket. It was always two.

Rather than judge intent, they changed the rule to judge based on observable actions....the ball was thrown from behind the arc and it goes it...all without complications. It is easily observable whether the thrower was throwing the ball at the basket or not....we don't have to determine why, just that it was throw there.

Now, introduce a defender trying to block the try/throw. That doesn't change anything. If the thrower is throwing the ball at the basket and a defender touches it, count it as 3. However, 4.41.4B tells us that when the throw (a try is just a throw with intent) is no longer on a trajectory to go in, it can no longer be a 3 if it is subsequently redirected to the basket.

The whole point of this rule, again, is to remove the need to judge intent. It was never meant to make something that was clearly not a shot into 3 points.

The rule was changed because of the prevalence of the "alley-oop" play. If the throw doesn't resemble that (even if another offensive player isn't there), or if the throw then ceases to have a (liberally interpreted) chance to enter the basket--for instance it falls below the height of the rim and hit a player in the shoulder, then just count two points.


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