Euro Step - Legal or illegal? Why either way? (Video)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.

Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.

Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends. If that was the case then you could not have a carry violation. And there was a time when it was taught to do a layup without every putting both hands on the ball. Never have I used or even suggested that only the gather took place with two hands alone. But I think it is the most common way to end a dribble is when players clearly stop their dribble, they do it by trying to secure the ball with both hands. Kind of the same way a player catches a pass. In this case, the player clearly tried to do just that, catch the ball with both hands on the ball. Also by rule the dribble ends with both hands touching the ball. With one hand you need the ball to come to rest or by interpretation, "Be more than a handshake." I do not see that clearly in this video.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

So does most people here. And since you are so worried about a term, well in this play I do not see any sign that the dribble officially ended with one hand. And if I am going to make sure a ruling, I also have to have some visual evidence that took place. Maybe in other videos there is a dribble that ended with one hand, but this is not the one IMO.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends.....

That's Camron projecting his definition and interpretation of the word on the rest of the officiating world. I've never had a discussion with an official who assumed that gathering a dribble requires 2 hands. And I've never heard even the most adept rules knowledge officials use the phrases "catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands" or "palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands" or "simultaneously touches the ball with both hands" (4-15-4) when discussing scenarios and plays. Every competent rules knowledge official I have worked with or had a discussion with uses the phrases "gathered the dribble" and "ended his dribble" interchangeably in discussions about this type of play and nobody ever gets confused.

[UNIgiantslayers]

I'm glad I was following this thread. Last night in a BV game, A1 made exactly this move and this really is a hard thing to catch live if it looks like this one on film. I was watching the defender because he had already drawn 2 charges, and I noticed the kid had started to go into a layup motion, he took one giant step, jumped off that foot, and made the bucket. My partner asked me about it at half time, but I judged his pivot foot to not have returned to the floor and watching this video about 10 times to see whether I thought it was a travel (I don't) definitely benefited me in this situation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's Camron projecting his definition and interpretation of the word on the rest of the officiating world. I've never had a discussion with an official who assumed that gathering a dribble requires 2 hands.

No. I've seen it used that way many times on this forum. It isn't me projecting anything. I'm just pointing that out. Some are now denying they used it that way, but it doesn't change history.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No. I've seen it used that way many times on this forum. It isn't me projecting anything. I'm just pointing that out. Some are now denying they used it that way, but it doesn't change history.

I can't account for your discussions and the people with whom you interact. I discuss rules with officials who have common sense and understand the context of "gather"-ing the ball in regards to when a dribble ends.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

I can't control what others think, interpret, misinterpret or are too lazy to look up themselves. And I definitely know the rules, how they apply, when to apply them, and which actions apply to a rule. Anytime you see me type the word "gather" know it is a synonym for "catch" in regards to the dribble ending.

I'll reserve my comments in regards to your holier than statement about judgment and rules application.