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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 01:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 03:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.
I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends. If that was the case then you could not have a carry violation. And there was a time when it was taught to do a layup without every putting both hands on the ball. Never have I used or even suggested that only the gather took place with two hands alone. But I think it is the most common way to end a dribble is when players clearly stop their dribble, they do it by trying to secure the ball with both hands. Kind of the same way a player catches a pass. In this case, the player clearly tried to do just that, catch the ball with both hands on the ball. Also by rule the dribble ends with both hands touching the ball. With one hand you need the ball to come to rest or by interpretation, "Be more than a handshake." I do not see that clearly in this video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.
So does most people here. And since you are so worried about a term, well in this play I do not see any sign that the dribble officially ended with one hand. And if I am going to make sure a ruling, I also have to have some visual evidence that took place. Maybe in other videos there is a dribble that ended with one hand, but this is not the one IMO.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.
I can't control what others think, interpret, misinterpret or are too lazy to look up themselves. And I definitely know the rules, how they apply, when to apply them, and which actions apply to a rule. Anytime you see me type the word "gather" know it is a synonym for "catch" in regards to the dribble ending.

I'll reserve my comments in regards to your holier than statement about judgment and rules application.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jan 08, 2019 at 09:40am.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 09:03am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends.....
That's Camron projecting his definition and interpretation of the word on the rest of the officiating world. I've never had a discussion with an official who assumed that gathering a dribble requires 2 hands. And I've never heard even the most adept rules knowledge officials use the phrases "catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands" or "palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands" or "simultaneously touches the ball with both hands" (4-15-4) when discussing scenarios and plays. Every competent rules knowledge official I have worked with or had a discussion with uses the phrases "gathered the dribble" and "ended his dribble" interchangeably in discussions about this type of play and nobody ever gets confused.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 09:10am
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I'm glad I was following this thread. Last night in a BV game, A1 made exactly this move and this really is a hard thing to catch live if it looks like this one on film. I was watching the defender because he had already drawn 2 charges, and I noticed the kid had started to go into a layup motion, he took one giant step, jumped off that foot, and made the bucket. My partner asked me about it at half time, but I judged his pivot foot to not have returned to the floor and watching this video about 10 times to see whether I thought it was a travel (I don't) definitely benefited me in this situation.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That's Camron projecting his definition and interpretation of the word on the rest of the officiating world. I've never had a discussion with an official who assumed that gathering a dribble requires 2 hands.
No. I've seen it used that way many times on this forum. It isn't me projecting anything. I'm just pointing that out. Some are now denying they used it that way, but it doesn't change history.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
No. I've seen it used that way many times on this forum. It isn't me projecting anything. I'm just pointing that out. Some are now denying they used it that way, but it doesn't change history.
I can't account for your discussions and the people with whom you interact. I discuss rules with officials who have common sense and understand the context of "gather"-ing the ball in regards to when a dribble ends.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I can't account for your discussions and the people with whom you interact. I discuss rules with officials who have common sense and understand the context of "gather"-ing the ball in regards to when a dribble ends.
There are people in this world that misrepresent all kinds of things and words. Because you interact with people that do not understand basic jargon or definitions does not mean they represent everyone that uses the jargon properly. And I cannot think of anyone on this site that suggested that only 2 hands meant a "gather."

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 03:11pm
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Two Hand Gather ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And I cannot think of anyone on this site that suggested that only 2 hands meant a "gather."
I'm not a big fan of the word gather, it's not in my NFHS rulebook, and my interpreter never uses it, but when in Rome ...

I've have seen kids in the pregame right side layup lines only bring the ball up with their right hand and then shoot with only their right hand, the ball never touching their left hand. The dribble had to end somewhere. Players seldom dibble into the basket.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm not a big fan of the word gather, it's not in my NFHS rulebook, and my interpreter never uses it, but when in Rome ...

I've have seen kids in the pregame right side layup lines only bring the ball up with their right hand and then shoot with only their right hand, the ball never touching their left hand. The dribble had to end somewhere. Players seldom dibble into the basket.
Yup, gather does not equate to only using 2 hands. Players make one handed layups/shots all the time without ever touching the ball with 2 hands. Also, NBA and some college players "gather" for shots by palming or cupping the ball with only one hand. lastly, we have all seen alley oops caught, gathered, and dunked with only one hand. (although many of you might not equate "gather" with being done in the the air)
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 04:05pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm not a big fan of the word gather, it's not in my NFHS rulebook, and my interpreter never uses it, but when in Rome ...
If that is the standard of using words of the game, we would not use half the words we use to talk about anything in the game with coaches or players. Sorry this self-righteous position that we only use words that appears to be in the rulebook is rather silly and rather stupid. The term "flop" is not in the rulebook but I do not see anyone moralizing that is something we should not use. Just got a email from a supervisor addresing how we handle flopping and it is in no rulebook. And it is moralizing when you are picking and choosing what words are and issue when other words we use without anyone giving a damn.

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 07:42pm
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Coincidence ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I've have seen kids in the pregame right side layup lines only bring the ball up with their right hand and then shoot with only their right hand, the ball never touching their left hand. The dribble had to end somewhere. Players seldom dibble into the basket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Yup, gather does not equate to only using 2 hands. Players make one handed layups/shots all the time without ever touching the ball with 2 hands.
Talk about coincidence. Tonight I had a player dribble down right side of the lane and bring the ball up with only his right hand and then shoot with only his right hand, the ball never touching his left hand.

He missed the layup.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 07:56pm
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Box Out Or Block Out ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If that is the standard of using words of the game, we would not use half the words we use to talk about anything in the game with coaches or players.
Agree, but some words are colloquial in nature and may vary between local areas. Here in Connecticut I have never heard the term "gather" to describe whether a play was a travel or not.

It appears that the NFHS wants us to tighten up on these local colloquial expressions with their Officiating Professionalism And Use Of Proper Terminology Point of Emphasis this year.

Good luck with that.

I can't speak for other parts of the country, but here in Connecticut, officials often refer to a baseline, we count the basket, we call jump balls, the basket has a rim, some timeouts are full timeouts, players establish legal guarding position, and we work games.

When in Rome ...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 12:00pm
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Doesn't look his pivot foot (left) returns to the floor before the ball is released for the try in real time.

The slo motion portion of the video leaves off the transition from dribble to gather, so it's difficult to really analyze. But, based on the slo mo that's given...same as real time. Legal movement.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 09, 2019, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches View Post
I don't have a travel there...left foot appeared to be pivot and it never came back down. Nice video...

From spending time at a pretty high level shooting camp a few years back...That's a good video showing what the Euro is. I try to tell guys all the time, all a "Euro" is...one step at the defender and the next out to the side/away...why is that so hard to comprehend.

These players out here poorly executing illegal jump stop where they get up in the air then land 1 - 2 and get banged for travel, then trying to say "euro step" crack me up. Euro or American, pivot foot allowances don't change!
I see too many officials blindly calling a travel when someone executes a poor jump stop and lands 1-2. Landing 1-2 is not a travel as long as the dribble ended when both feet were off the ground. Many times the "gather" or ending of the dribble at the high school level is as close as you see in the video from OP. Unless I can determine for certain, I let it go. I think many guess and just call a travel. That's just my 2 cents on the 1-2 landing.
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