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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 10:38am
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Legal.

I read something somewhere about thinking of the end of the dribble as a process (i.e. the gather) rather than a single moment in time. Using this philosophy, it's clear to me that the gather ends with the left foot as the pivot, and it doesn't come back down before the ball is released.

Is it good for the game to split hairs and rule these plays travels? Not for me.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 12:27pm
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Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I imagine we are seeing the same thing, I'm seeing the left hand on the side of the ball and the right-hand not on it, well some of you others are seeing that left hand under the ball and saying the dribble has thus been stopped. That hand isn't under the ball, it said about two-thirds of the way up the ball. I need to see that right hand also grab the ball before I would say the dribble is stopped . If you don't interpret it that way, you're going to see a whole lot more travels than I do in every single game.
That isn't the rule. If you reach a point where another dribble would be a carry (one hand under the ball or the ball coming to rest in one hand), the dribble has ended at that point...that is why it would be a carry. There is absolutely no requirement that two hands be on the ball to end the dribble, otherwise, you could catch the ball in one hand and run down the court. Once that has occurred, the travel rules are in effect.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 12:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I have his dribble ended (gather complete) with his left foot down. He doesn't put that foot back down prior to releasing his try.

That's why it is called "judgment".
I agree with your description...that is judgement. But, the rules (which are not judgement) do not require the "gather" to be complete. In fact, there is no such thing in the rules. The travel rules apply when the ball is held in even ONE hand...which occurs before the "gather".

That said, I'm never going to call this one because I wouldn't be good enough to see it and be sure of it. But, that doesn't make it not a travel. It just means it is too close to see clearly.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
That isn't the rule. If you reach a point where another dribble would be a carry (one hand under the ball or the ball coming to rest in one hand), the dribble has ended at that point...that is why it would be a carry. There is absolutely no requirement that two hands be on the ball to end the dribble, otherwise, you could catch the ball in one hand and run down the court. Once that has occurred, the travel rules are in effect.
There is no requirement for two hands to be on the ball to end the dribble, that is very true. But you are assuming without any evidence that the dribble officially ended with only one hand. There are some things that actually have to take place for the dribble to end with only one hand and that is not clear on the video or clear by the actions of this player, this took place. The dribble does not simply end because the ball is not put back on the floor. The dribble ends when the player grabs the ball in a way that they are either completely under the ball with his hand or have grabbed the ball with one hand which players do not try to do very often. Most of the time players are trying to grab the ball with two hands and not one because that is how they are taught fundamentally.

You try to sell us on this notion every time I post one of these videos. But we have to guess what we see in your situation rather than see what is clear on the video. And we have to slow it down to even come close. Sorry, I see nothing on this video that the ball handler got any control with one hand. The ball could be spinning or not come to rest until both hands come to the ball. And I am not calling that a violation that close or in real time or in slow motion.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 02:28pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
There is no requirement for two hands to be on the ball to end the dribble, that is very true. But you are assuming without any evidence that the dribble officially ended with only one hand. There are some things that actually have to take place for the dribble to end with only one hand and that is not clear on the video or clear by the actions of this player, this took place. The dribble does not simply end because the ball is not put back on the floor. The dribble ends when the player grabs the ball in a way that they are either completely under the ball with his hand or have grabbed the ball with one hand which players do not try to do very often. Most of the time players are trying to grab the ball with two hands and not one because that is how they are taught fundamentally.

You try to sell us on this notion every time I post one of these videos. But we have to guess what we see in your situation rather than see what is clear on the video. And we have to slow it down to even come close. Sorry, I see nothing on this video that the ball handler got any control with one hand. The ball could be spinning or not come to rest until both hands come to the ball. And I am not calling that a violation that close or in real time or in slow motion.

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My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 02:42pm
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I don't have a travel there...left foot appeared to be pivot and it never came back down. Nice video...

From spending time at a pretty high level shooting camp a few years back...That's a good video showing what the Euro is. I try to tell guys all the time, all a "Euro" is...one step at the defender and the next out to the side/away...why is that so hard to comprehend.

These players out here poorly executing illegal jump stop where they get up in the air then land 1 - 2 and get banged for travel, then trying to say "euro step" crack me up. Euro or American, pivot foot allowances don't change!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.
I did not read that anyone was trying to have a deep rules conversation on when or how a dribble ends with one or two hands. I think people were judging that the dribble did not end until he grabbed the ball with both hands. That is not making up their own rules, that is seeing what happened in the video and saying that is what they are ruling.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but no one is trying to split hairs other than you in this situation. And even you are saying you would not call this a travel. I have seen players without moving to try to catch a pass with one hand and not do it so cleanly. So it is possible that everyone is saying it is not clear that he stops his dribble until the ball is in both hands. And if there is a benefit of the doubt every given, that is my philosophy on this or many other kinds of plays. If it was clear he had possession with one hand, I have no issues going with that. But you are talking about a carry in the context of this play where it does not really apply. A carry is usually a move to hesitate or deceive in a way to make your defender think he/she is stopping their dribble. Not exactly the case here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.
I disagree, but again we are not going to agree on this like the other times. Nothing new to see here.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 03:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.
There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 06:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.
“Gather/gathering” is a horrible term. Makes people think two hands are required. Not the case. Not in any rule book. If you use the term “gather” just tells me you havnt been doing this very long.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 06:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.
Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 08:13pm
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“Gather/gathering” is a horrible term. Makes people think two hands are required. Not the case. Not in any rule book. If you use the term “gather” just tells me you havnt been doing this very long.
That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 08:56pm
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That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.
It’s a bad term. Using it doesn’t mean you can’t referee or be “very good” at it. I could have said it differently. I’m not sure when the term came in but I’ve never liked it..

Last edited by BigCat; Mon Jan 07, 2019 at 09:51pm.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 09:50pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.
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That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I suppose part of it is nonsense. You can use that term and still be a very good or even great referee. When did the term come into the game?
The term "Euro-Step" is also not a rulebook term, but it is used all over the game by people associated with the game. The term describes a specific action or attempt at a specific action, just like "gather." And at least in the NF case, they used the term "Euro-Step" to describe an action addressed in the traveling POE this year.

People need to stop IMO with the brow-beating of things that are not specifically covered in the rule. I get it if we are talking about things that completely bastardize the rule or misinform. But neither "gather" or "euro-step" does either. They both describe an action that explains a moment or movement that we have rules to suggest either legal or illegal actions.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 12:32am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I have his dribble ended (gather complete) with his left foot down. He doesn't put that foot back down prior to releasing his try.

That's why it is called "judgment".
I have the same thing...no travel.

In a recent game, I was at Trail and had a player come from my primary and his move to the basket looked pretty much exactly like this. The C came over and got a travel. I didn't make a big deal of it, but I really didn't think he needed to come get it, and felt like he did simply because it looked funny.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 12:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.
Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jan 08, 2019 at 12:48am.
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