Euro Step - Legal or illegal? Why either way? (Video)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no requirement for two hands to be on the ball to end the dribble, that is very true. But you are assuming without any evidence that the dribble officially ended with only one hand. There are some things that actually have to take place for the dribble to end with only one hand and that is not clear on the video or clear by the actions of this player, this took place. The dribble does not simply end because the ball is not put back on the floor. The dribble ends when the player grabs the ball in a way that they are either completely under the ball with his hand or have grabbed the ball with one hand which players do not try to do very often. Most of the time players are trying to grab the ball with two hands and not one because that is how they are taught fundamentally.

You try to sell us on this notion every time I post one of these videos. But we have to guess what we see in your situation rather than see what is clear on the video. And we have to slow it down to even come close. Sorry, I see nothing on this video that the ball handler got any control with one hand. The ball could be spinning or not come to rest until both hands come to the ball. And I am not calling that a violation that close or in real time or in slow motion.

Peace

My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

I did not read that anyone was trying to have a deep rules conversation on when or how a dribble ends with one or two hands. I think people were judging that the dribble did not end until he grabbed the ball with both hands. That is not making up their own rules, that is seeing what happened in the video and saying that is what they are ruling.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but no one is trying to split hairs other than you in this situation. And even you are saying you would not call this a travel. I have seen players without moving to try to catch a pass with one hand and not do it so cleanly. So it is possible that everyone is saying it is not clear that he stops his dribble until the ball is in both hands. And if there is a benefit of the doubt every given, that is my philosophy on this or many other kinds of plays. If it was clear he had possession with one hand, I have no issues going with that. But you are talking about a carry in the context of this play where it does not really apply. A carry is usually a move to hesitate or deceive in a way to make your defender think he/she is stopping their dribble. Not exactly the case here.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.

I disagree, but again we are not going to agree on this like the other times. Nothing new to see here.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.

There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.

“Gather/gathering” is a horrible term. Makes people think two hands are required. Not the case. Not in any rule book. If you use the term “gather” just tells me you havnt been doing this very long.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigCat

“Gather/gathering” is a horrible term. Makes people think two hands are required. Not the case. Not in any rule book. If you use the term “gather” just tells me you havnt been doing this very long.

That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.

It’s a bad term. Using it doesn’t mean you can’t referee or be “very good” at it. I could have said it differently. I’m not sure when the term came in but I’ve never liked it..

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.

Originally Posted by Rich

That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.

Originally Posted by BigCat

I suppose part of it is nonsense. You can use that term and still be a very good or even great referee. When did the term come into the game?

The term "Euro-Step" is also not a rulebook term, but it is used all over the game by people associated with the game. The term describes a specific action or attempt at a specific action, just like "gather." And at least in the NF case, they used the term "Euro-Step" to describe an action addressed in the traveling POE this year.

People need to stop IMO with the brow-beating of things that are not specifically covered in the rule. I get it if we are talking about things that completely bastardize the rule or misinform. But neither "gather" or "euro-step" does either. They both describe an action that explains a moment or movement that we have rules to suggest either legal or illegal actions.

Peace

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have his dribble ended (gather complete) with his left foot down. He doesn't put that foot back down prior to releasing his try.

That's why it is called "judgment".

I have the same thing...no travel.

In a recent game, I was at Trail and had a player come from my primary and his move to the basket looked pretty much exactly like this. The C came over and got a travel. I didn't make a big deal of it, but I really didn't think he needed to come get it, and felt like he did simply because it looked funny.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.

Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.

Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends. If that was the case then you could not have a carry violation. And there was a time when it was taught to do a layup without every putting both hands on the ball. Never have I used or even suggested that only the gather took place with two hands alone. But I think it is the most common way to end a dribble is when players clearly stop their dribble, they do it by trying to secure the ball with both hands. Kind of the same way a player catches a pass. In this case, the player clearly tried to do just that, catch the ball with both hands on the ball. Also by rule the dribble ends with both hands touching the ball. With one hand you need the ball to come to rest or by interpretation, "Be more than a handshake." I do not see that clearly in this video.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

So does most people here. And since you are so worried about a term, well in this play I do not see any sign that the dribble officially ended with one hand. And if I am going to make sure a ruling, I also have to have some visual evidence that took place. Maybe in other videos there is a dribble that ended with one hand, but this is not the one IMO.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends.....

That's Camron projecting his definition and interpretation of the word on the rest of the officiating world. I've never had a discussion with an official who assumed that gathering a dribble requires 2 hands. And I've never heard even the most adept rules knowledge officials use the phrases "catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands" or "palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands" or "simultaneously touches the ball with both hands" (4-15-4) when discussing scenarios and plays. Every competent rules knowledge official I have worked with or had a discussion with uses the phrases "gathered the dribble" and "ended his dribble" interchangeably in discussions about this type of play and nobody ever gets confused.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

I can't control what others think, interpret, misinterpret or are too lazy to look up themselves. And I definitely know the rules, how they apply, when to apply them, and which actions apply to a rule. Anytime you see me type the word "gather" know it is a synonym for "catch" in regards to the dribble ending.

I'll reserve my comments in regards to your holier than statement about judgment and rules application.