When to start 10 second count?

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by DrPete

So to answer to the OP, begin the 10 second count when the player gains control of the ball in the backcourt.

Don't feel bad; Joyce S.(VHSL BBall Rules honcho) got it wrong last time I asked her...

[DrPete]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Don't feel bad; Joyce S.(VHSL BBall Rules honcho) got it wrong last time I asked her...

Oh no, I just emailed her about another rules interpretation!

Thanks Nevada for the 2008-2009 case book play reference. I started in 2009, and while it may have been published again since 2008, I didn't remember it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DrPete

Oh no, I just emailed her about another rules interpretation

Ask us and compare the answers.

[Jqb12]

WOW.
Can't believe all the garbage that went with this post. "Is he a fan, a coach, a lurker..WTF? I simply asked a question that a veteran of 40 years ran by me yesterday at our game. I understood the justification he gave and trusted he was correct based on his veteran status, but for my own learning/knowledge of the game i was looking for more, or someone else to give me the same answer. Since the game, I've asked several area officials on this play, and they are all wrong also (Dr. Pete)! This is my 8th season working varsity ball in Ohio/Pa and this play has never come up. I go to this forum a lot (read more than post) when I have questions so that I can continue to learn. Ill tell you one thing I have learned sadly, is that being a former FB coach for years, I always felt that coaches were some of the most egotistical dudes to be around - changed my mind, officials can be the worst. Put a whistle in someones mouth and forget it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I teach classes and when someone asks a question like this, I ask questions to help them get to the real answer. Usually, they learn better than me just saying, "The count starts....." because they do not understand the logic in the long run. I ask questions so that they can work through the logic of the rules and understand the rule itself.

Agree. I myself used the Socratic method for the thirty years that I taught various sciences. I was a most successful, award winning teacher because of it.

While it can't be denied that this is an officials forum, sometimes a fan, parent, coach, player, table crew member, etc., just wants a simple answer to a simple question, using the forum as a rule source rather than a discussion board.

Many would disagree with me, but occasionally an official may want a quick answer to a question. It's the twenty-first century, and the internet is now considered a source of information, books made of dead trees no longer have a monopoly as sources of information.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

WOW.
Can't believe all the garbage that went with this post. "Is he a fan, a coach, a lurker..WTF? I simply asked a question that a veteran of 40 years ran by me yesterday at our game. I understood the justification he gave and trusted he was correct based on his veteran status, but for my own learning/knowledge of the game i was looking for more, or someone else to give me the same answer. Since the game, I've asked several area officials on this play, and they are all wrong also (Dr. Pete)! This is my 8th season working varsity ball in Ohio/Pa and this play has never come up. I go to this forum a lot (read more than post) when I have questions so that I can continue to learn. Ill tell you one thing I have learned sadly, is that being a former FB coach for years, I always felt that coaches were some of the most egotistical dudes to be around - changed my mind, officials can be the worst. Put a whistle in someones mouth and forget it.

If you are an official as you claim, then you should know how to find the answer rather quickly. If that bothers you that we here discuss all kinds of aspects of a rule and you cannot get a quick answer, take that to a mentor or someone on FB. BTW, they do the same thing on FB and other social media platforms during similar discussions. I also feel many officials have very fragile egos when expecting to get an answer they never seem to understand. You have been doing this in 8 years and have not figured out when a 10-second count starts? And your question was not about when it actually started, but when it continues. This is something I learned the first year of officiating because I had to get into the rulebook. They did not even have this forum up when I started. I had to do a lot of reading of the rulebook to know basic things. Not a lot of email or even social media to get a quick answer. Lame if you ask me.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

Can't believe all the garbage that went with this post.

When I logged on this morning "When to start the 10 sec. count" with seventeen replies caught my attention. I wondered what was going on. Should have been answered in far fewer replies than that, maybe an answer and an additional rule citation.

While I enjoy debate as much as anybody, and fully understand the educational value of "digging" into a topic (my understanding of the various jump ball rules has improved because of a recent thread), I also understand that some may use this forum as a rule source, like Alexa, or Siri, but with the hassle of having to use a keyboard rather than just asking orally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Many would disagree with me, but occasionally an official may want a quick answer to a question. It's the twenty-first century, and the internet is now considered a source of information, books made of dead trees no longer have a monopoly as sources of information.

They may want one, but then we have apps, rulebooks, and many platforms to get those answers. Not everyone is going to just give you the answer when the question clearly shows you do not understand the very basics of what you are asking.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

WOW.
Can't believe all the garbage that went with this post. "Is he a fan, a coach, a lurker..WTF? I simply asked a question that a veteran of 40 years ran by me yesterday at our game. I understood the justification he gave and trusted he was correct based on his veteran status, but for my own learning/knowledge of the game i was looking for more, or someone else to give me the same answer. Since the game, I've asked several area officials on this play, and they are all wrong also (Dr. Pete)! This is my 8th season working varsity ball in Ohio/Pa and this play has never come up. I go to this forum a lot (read more than post) when I have questions so that I can continue to learn. Ill tell you one thing I have learned sadly, is that being a former FB coach for years, I always felt that coaches were some of the most egotistical dudes to be around - changed my mind, officials can be the worst. Put a whistle in someones mouth and forget it.

Why wouldn't you post more? You're an 8th year vet and could contribute.

I don't understand when people take and take and take and then complain about how the responses are unfriendly and the like -- if you were a contributor, I'd be more inclined to listen more.

I get we're an annoying bunch at times, but we know the answers to these questions and rather than answer them, we'd like to get people to find the answers themselves by asking the questions that need to be asked to figure them out. That's all.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are an official as you claim, then you should know how to find the answer rather quickly.

When I'm at a game site, I use the rulebook and casebook to get a quick answer (I don't own a smartphone, long story).

When I'm taking my annual take-home open-book Refresher Exam, I have the rulebook and casebook by my side.

But when I'm home with my packed equipment bag downstairs near the door, or in the back seat of my car, I know how to get a relatively quickly answer to a question, I ask the Forum (or use its search tool).

Sometimes there is no quick answer, usually because the NFHS has done a poor job regarding some interpretations, but I'm very likely to get a quick correct answer using the Forum in many cases.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

SITUATION 8: A1 is dribbling in his/her frontcourt when B1 deflects the ball into A's backcourt. The ball is bouncing toward the end line in A's backcourt while A1 and B1 give chase. B1 and A1 each contact the ball, but neither gains control. Finally, after numerous attempts by each player, A1 gains possession deep in A's backcourt. When does the 10-second count begin anew for Team A? RULING: The count starts as soon as the ball goes into the backcourt since team control has not ended. (4-12-3; 9-8)

Rule 9-8 says: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

I am having an absolute brain freeze. Cortex won't work...except to type. On a throw-in to the BC, the count is not started until there is player control in the BC. What citation explains that the 10 second count is started with player control and not simply when the ball is in the BC? (b/c there is still team control during a throw-in)

Example: A1 releases the ball on a throw-in to the BC and the ball slowly rolls in the BC for 4 seconds without being touched. A2 gets the ball and the official begins the 10-second count. Why does the 10-second count not start when the ball is inbounds rolling untouched, after all Team A had team control?

I know the rule, just can't find where it is documented. Or does this fall under the reasoning that there is no documentation needed because TC on a throw-in only applies to foul situations? I just can't remember. Thought there was something specific.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... we have ... many platforms to get those answers.

Agree, and the Forum is one of them (I might add, a pretty good one), and of course, there are many others, including books made of dead trees, sometimes there's nothing wrong with "old stuff" like the wheel, and walls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When I'm at a game site, I use the rulebook and casebook to get a quick answer (I don't own a smartphone, long story).

When I'm taking my annual take-home open-book Refresher Exam, I have the rulebook and casebook by my side.

But when I'm home with my packed equipment bag downstairs near the door, or in the back seat of my car, I know how to get a relatively quickly answer to a question, I ask the Forum (or use its search tool).

Sometimes there is no quick answer, usually because the NFHS has done a poor job regarding some interpretations, but I'm very likely to get a quick correct answer using the Forum in many cases.

Don't miss the point Billy. There are several resources to get this answer. There are even Simplified and Illustrated books, Rules by Topic, Referee Magazine articles and tests, online websites, and even rulebooks online if you look hard enough. If you are going to be in your feelings about the answers you get, then use the multiple resources to find the answer. And if someone gives you an answer, how are you going to know they are telling you the right reference? It means you might have to still look it up.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I know the rule, just can't find where it is documented.

Ask Alexa, or Siri. And then ask her to rub your back.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if someone gives you an answer, how are you going to know they are telling you the right reference?

Here on the Forum, we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves. It's almost like the peer review process that we scientists are obligated use.

Originally Posted by DrPete

... begin the 10 second count when the player gains control of the ball in the backcourt.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your answer is incorrect.

Originally Posted by DrPete

Are you saying count would start when ball went into backcourt?

Originally Posted by BigCat

The count starts the moment the ball touches the BC.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 8: A1 is dribbling in his/her frontcourt when B1 deflects the ball into A's backcourt. The ball is bouncing toward the end line in A's backcourt while A1 and B1 give chase. B1 and A1 each contact the ball, but neither gains control. Finally, after numerous attempts by each player, A1 gains possession deep in A's backcourt. When does the 10-second count begin anew for Team A? RULING: The count starts as soon as the ball goes into the backcourt since team control has not ended. (4-12-3; 9-8)

Originally Posted by DrPete

Well at my age any day you learn something new is a good day. Thanks guys.