When to start 10 second count?

[CJP]

In this case, I think the rule book is pretty clear. I will admit that there are a few rules that I have heard "veteran" officials just make things up. This has caused me to doubt my interpretation of the rule book sometimes. In defense of the OP, I know what the rule book says but it never hurts to get some discussion going about these types of things.

[Jqb12]

Originally Posted by Rich

Why wouldn't you post more? You're an 8th year vet and could contribute.

I don't understand when people take and take and take and then complain about how the responses are unfriendly and the like -- if you were a contributor, I'd be more inclined to listen more.

I get we're an annoying bunch at times, but we know the answers to these questions and rather than answer them, we'd like to get people to find the answers themselves by asking the questions that need to be asked to figure them out. That's all.

1. I only come here when I can't find the answer myself. There's nothing in the 2018-19 casebook. Looks like I'd have to go back to 2008-9 to find it.
2. Why don't I post here more? Would rather look people in the eyes to get an answer than spend hours playing on the internet.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

1. I only come here when I can't find the answer myself. There's nothing in the 2018-19 casebook. Looks like I'd have to go back to 2008-9 to find it.
2. Why don't I post here more? Would rather look people in the eyes to get an answer than spend hours playing on the internet.

So you're a user. Then you don't like the response when you come here to use us. Got it.

See you in another 2+ years, I guess.

[Jqb12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are an official as you claim, then you should know how to find the answer rather quickly. If that bothers you that we here discuss all kinds of aspects of a rule and you cannot get a quick answer, take that to a mentor or someone on FB. BTW, they do the same thing on FB and other social media platforms during similar discussions. I also feel many officials have very fragile egos when expecting to get an answer they never seem to understand. You have been doing this in 8 years and have not figured out when a 10-second count starts? And your question was not about when it actually started, but when it continues. This is something I learned the first year of officiating because I had to get into the rulebook. They did not even have this forum up when I started. I had to do a lot of reading of the rulebook to know basic things. Not a lot of email or even social media to get a quick answer. Lame if you ask me.

Peace

1. So the easy answer was to go back to the 2008-09 book to find it? Sure, the justification of the play seems simple, but there's a lot of officials out there who would answer that question wrong, just as you read on here (Dr. Pete)..
2. Nothing about a fragile ego here. i have the balls to simply ask something that I wish to know. you may need to tell the world how you clawed your way up the ladder by reading the rulebook in order too feel good about yourself - i don't. So i think its pretty clear whats 'lame" here.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 8: A1 is dribbling in his/her frontcourt when B1 deflects the ball into A's backcourt. The ball is bouncing toward the end line in A's backcourt while A1 and B1 give chase. B1 and A1 each contact the ball, but neither gains control. Finally, after numerous attempts by each player, A1 gains possession deep in A's backcourt. When does the 10-second count begin anew for Team A? RULING: The count starts as soon as the ball goes into the backcourt since team control has not ended. (4-12-3; 9-8)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have been doing this in 8 years and have not figured out when a 10-second count starts?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... the question clearly shows you do not understand the very basics of what you are asking.

While agree with JRutledge that knowing when to start the ten second count is a very basic rule that all of us learned the very first year we officiated, the fact that the NFHS chose to make this an annual interpretation with no relevant rule change leads me to speculate that the NFHS felt that more than just two or three of us were waiting to start a new count until the ball was touched or controlled (by a player) in the backcourt in this specific situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

Why wouldn't you post more? You're an 8th year vet and could contribute ... asking the questions that need to be asked to figure them out.

Agree with Rich. Please contribute.

Also sounds like Rich is another disciple of Socrates.

Of course, as disciples of Socrates, unlike Socrates, we have to remember not to drink the hemlock.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While agree with JRutledge that knowing when to start the ten second count is a very basic rule that all of us learned the very first year we officiated, the fact that the NFHS chose to make this an annual interpretation with no relevant rule change leads me to speculate that the NFHS felt that more than just two or three of us were waiting to start a new count until the ball was touched or controlled in the backcourt in this specific situation.

I had to tell a shot clock operator (prep school game) not to wait for control to start the shot clock (after a made basket), start at just a touch, while I didn't start my ten second count until control was established, which could vary by a few seconds. Not being an NCAA official, and being fairly unfamiliar with shot clocks, I learned that on the Forum (it wasn't on our Connecticut prep school rules handout).

NCAA Rules on the 10-second count is not the same as the NF rule. And this rule was changed in the last few years to go along with the shot clock time. If that was asked that could have been explained. But this was not a NCAA rules question or any reference to what the NCAA might do.

And this also has nothing to do with any POE. The rule has been the same since I started officiating in the mid-90s with the NF. But I digress.

Peace

[Jqb12]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While agree with JRutledge that knowing when to start the ten second count is a very basic rule that all of us learned the very first year we officiated, the fact that the NFHS chose to make this an annual interpretation with no relevant rule change leads me to speculate that the NFHS felt that more than just two or three of us were waiting to start a new count until the ball was touched or controlled in the backcourt in this specific situation.

C'Mon Billy, this isn't about a "continuation" of the 10 sec. clock as Rutledge claims, it was simply a question of when to RESTART the count. Period!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Rule 9-8 says: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

I am having an absolute brain freeze. Cortex won't work...except to type. On a throw-in to the BC, the count is not started until there is player control in the BC. What citation explains that the 10 second count is started with player control and not simply when the ball is in the BC? (b/c there is still team control during a throw-in)

Example: A1 releases the ball on a throw-in to the BC and the ball slowly rolls in the BC for 4 seconds without being touched. A2 gets the ball and the official begins the 10-second count. Why does the 10-second count not start when the ball is inbounds rolling untouched, after all Team A had team control?

I know the rule, just can't find where it is documented. Or does this fall under the reasoning that there is no documentation needed because TC on a throw-in only applies to foul situations? I just can't remember. Thought there was something specific.

Your last point is the reason....there is only team control on a throwin for fouls. Real and full team control only begins when an inbounds player gains control.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

1. So the easy answer was to go back to the 2008-09 book to find it? Sure, the justification of the play seems simple, but there's a lot of officials out there who would answer that question wrong, just as you read on here (Dr. Pete).

You don't have to go back to any case book. A basic reading and understanding of the written rules (on backcourt violations and team control) tells you everything you need to make the ruling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NCAA Rules on the 10-second count is not the same as the NF rule. And this rule was changed in the last few years to go along with the shot clock time.

After posting, I double checked my 2018-19 Connecticut prep school rules handout which shows the change. After double checking, I deleted that part of my post, I'm sorry if I have confused anybody, I almost confused myself.

[CJP]

Did a "veteran" official make a false claim about a shot clock reset situation and edit it? Just wondering if I am losing my mind because I just read up on it and at least in my state, he would be wrong. Proves my point that no matter how "basic" a rule should be, it is okay to discuss sometimes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And this also has nothing to do with any POE. The rule has been the same since I started officiating in the mid-90s with the NF.

Annual interpretation, not a Point of Emphasis.

Agree 100%, the rule has been around for a very long time (since at least 1980 for me), unchanged.

But the NFHS must have thought that something "fishy" was going on to make this situation an annual interpretation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

Did a "veteran" official make a false claim about a shot clock reset situation and edit it?

Not a false claim, just an old situation that is no longer valid, making it confusing, which is why I deleted it.

Sorry if I confused anybody.

As the young'uns say, "My bad" (do they still say that?).

[CJP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not a false claim, just an old situation that is no longer valid, making it confusing, which is why I deleted it.

Sorry if I confused anybody.

As the young'uns say, "My bad" (do they still say that?).

Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. Does a new shot clock start on a touch or control in a rebounding situation?