When to start 10 second count?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then qualify that, this is an official's forum, not a coach's or fan's forum.

What the gentleman from Illinois meant to say was....fans, coaches and general lurkers are welcome here (except when posing as fanboys in March)! We just ask that you ID yourself as such so that we can be a little patient. Among officials...well, we have a little tendency to eat our young.





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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

What the gentleman from Illinois meant to say was....fans, coaches and general lurkers are welcome here (except when posing as fanboys in March)! We just ask that you ID yourself as such so that we can be a little patient. Among officials...well, we have a little tendency to eat our young.

That is actually not what I meant to say. I teach classes and when someone asks a question like this, I ask questions to help them get to the real answer. Usually, they learn better than me just saying, "The count starts....." because they do not understand the logic in the long run. I ask questions so that they can work through the logic of the rules and understand the rule itself. And the people in my classes are often rather new with some experience or never have officiated a day in their life. Many come from the coaching and player ranks and often think a rule is one way or what it was when they were playing. I am very clear about my position. When people are not officials on this site, they could make that known like many have over the years. It is clear this is an official's forum, not a fanboy site where people there assume all kinds of things with rules. I do not think there is anything wrong with asking questions to help people draw the conclusion.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I teach classes and when someone asks a question like this, I ask questions to help them get to the real answer. Usually, they learn better than me just saying, "The count starts....." because they do not understand the logic in the long run. I ask questions so that they can work through the logic of the rules and understand the rule itself.

Agree. I myself used the Socratic method for the thirty years that I taught various sciences. I was a most successful, award winning teacher because of it.

While it can't be denied that this is an officials forum, sometimes a fan, parent, coach, player, table crew member, etc., just wants a simple answer to a simple question, using the forum as a rule source rather than a discussion board.

Many would disagree with me, but occasionally an official may want a quick answer to a question. It's the twenty-first century, and the internet is now considered a source of information, books made of dead trees no longer have a monopoly as sources of information.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Many would disagree with me, but occasionally an official may want a quick answer to a question. It's the twenty-first century, and the internet is now considered a source of information, books made of dead trees no longer have a monopoly as sources of information.

They may want one, but then we have apps, rulebooks, and many platforms to get those answers. Not everyone is going to just give you the answer when the question clearly shows you do not understand the very basics of what you are asking.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... we have ... many platforms to get those answers.

Agree, and the Forum is one of them (I might add, a pretty good one), and of course, there are many others, including books made of dead trees, sometimes there's nothing wrong with "old stuff" like the wheel, and walls.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 8: A1 is dribbling in his/her frontcourt when B1 deflects the ball into A's backcourt. The ball is bouncing toward the end line in A's backcourt while A1 and B1 give chase. B1 and A1 each contact the ball, but neither gains control. Finally, after numerous attempts by each player, A1 gains possession deep in A's backcourt. When does the 10-second count begin anew for Team A? RULING: The count starts as soon as the ball goes into the backcourt since team control has not ended. (4-12-3; 9-8)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have been doing this in 8 years and have not figured out when a 10-second count starts?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... the question clearly shows you do not understand the very basics of what you are asking.

While agree with JRutledge that knowing when to start the ten second count is a very basic rule that all of us learned the very first year we officiated, the fact that the NFHS chose to make this an annual interpretation with no relevant rule change leads me to speculate that the NFHS felt that more than just two or three of us were waiting to start a new count until the ball was touched or controlled (by a player) in the backcourt in this specific situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While agree with JRutledge that knowing when to start the ten second count is a very basic rule that all of us learned the very first year we officiated, the fact that the NFHS chose to make this an annual interpretation with no relevant rule change leads me to speculate that the NFHS felt that more than just two or three of us were waiting to start a new count until the ball was touched or controlled in the backcourt in this specific situation.

I had to tell a shot clock operator (prep school game) not to wait for control to start the shot clock (after a made basket), start at just a touch, while I didn't start my ten second count until control was established, which could vary by a few seconds. Not being an NCAA official, and being fairly unfamiliar with shot clocks, I learned that on the Forum (it wasn't on our Connecticut prep school rules handout).

NCAA Rules on the 10-second count is not the same as the NF rule. And this rule was changed in the last few years to go along with the shot clock time. If that was asked that could have been explained. But this was not a NCAA rules question or any reference to what the NCAA might do.

And this also has nothing to do with any POE. The rule has been the same since I started officiating in the mid-90s with the NF. But I digress.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NCAA Rules on the 10-second count is not the same as the NF rule. And this rule was changed in the last few years to go along with the shot clock time.

After posting, I double checked my 2018-19 Connecticut prep school rules handout which shows the change. After double checking, I deleted that part of my post, I'm sorry if I have confused anybody, I almost confused myself.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And this also has nothing to do with any POE. The rule has been the same since I started officiating in the mid-90s with the NF.

Annual interpretation, not a Point of Emphasis.

Agree 100%, the rule has been around for a very long time (since at least 1980 for me), unchanged.

But the NFHS must have thought that something "fishy" was going on to make this situation an annual interpretation.

[Jqb12]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While agree with JRutledge that knowing when to start the ten second count is a very basic rule that all of us learned the very first year we officiated, the fact that the NFHS chose to make this an annual interpretation with no relevant rule change leads me to speculate that the NFHS felt that more than just two or three of us were waiting to start a new count until the ball was touched or controlled in the backcourt in this specific situation.

C'Mon Billy, this isn't about a "continuation" of the 10 sec. clock as Rutledge claims, it was simply a question of when to RESTART the count. Period!