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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
NCAAW Interp (correct because the NCAAW rule is different from FED's rule):

DATE:

1/2/2019

RULE:

4-8-2

QUESTION:

Team A has control of the ball in the front court. B2 deflects the ball deep into the back court and A2 runs back and receives the ball back by the free throw line. Because team A was still in team control does the 10 second counts start when the ball crosses the division line or when A2 picks the ball up?

ANSWER:

No part of the backcourt count is predicated on the ball crossing the division line. When B2 deflected the ball into the backcourt, the ten-second count begins when any player touches the ball in Team A’s backcourt (Rule 9-10; A.R. 233 [1]).


Here's the relevant rule:

Section 10. 10-Second Backcourt
The 10-second count shall begin when a player legally touches the ball in her
team’s backcourt except on a rebound or jump ball. In such case, the 10-second count shall start on player control. Once the 10-second count begins, an inbounds player (and her team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in her backcourt for 10 consecutive seconds. The 10-second count shall be reset on all stoppages of the game clock except when the opponents cause the ball to be out of bounds, the team in control retains possession following a held ball, a technical foul is assessed to the team in control, or the team in control is granted a timeout.
They seem to go out of their way to emphasize that the ball crossing the division line having no affect a 10-second count starting. I don't think that's an argument anybody has ever tried to make. Why nothing on the more pertinent part of this conversation, the ball attaining BC status while in continuous TC? We all know the 10-second count terminates once the ball gains FC status, regardless of PC. The relevant variable to this conversation should be the reverse--should a 10-second count start when the ball attains BC status while in continuous TC.
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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Jan 07, 2019 at 03:22pm.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 03:32pm
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For Our High School Only Members ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
They seem to go out of their way to emphasize that the ball crossing the division line having no affect a 10-second count starting.
For our high school only members that see this college interpretation, I don't like the phrase "crossing the division line".

The ball crossing the plane of the division line (in the air) is not only not relevant to the college ten second count, it's also not relevant to the application of the high school ten second count, the ball must touch someone in the backcourt, or the floor in the backcourt, to begin the high school ten second count in the situation that we've been discussing, not simply cross the plane of the division line in the air.

Of course, all Forum members are what'cha call experts, and we would never think that.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 07, 2019 at 03:35pm.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
They seem to go out of their way to emphasize that the ball crossing the division line having no affect a 10-second count starting. I don't think that's an argument anybody has ever tried to make. Why nothing on the more pertinent part of this conversation, the ball attaining BC status while in continuous TC? We all know the 10-second count terminates once the ball gains FC status, regardless of PC. The relevant variable to this conversation should be the reverse--should a 10-second count start when the ball attains BC status while in continuous TC.
The rule makes it clear (at least to me). It details when, always, the count starts -- in the OP (and in all instances except a jump ball or a rebound), it's when the ball is touched.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 03:59pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
For our high school only members that see this college interpretation, I don't like the phrase "crossing the division line".

The ball crossing the plane of the division line (in the air) is not only not relevant to the college ten second count, it's also not relevant to the application of the high school ten second count, the ball must touch someone in the backcourt, or the floor in the backcourt, to begin the high school ten second count in the situation that we've been discussing, not simply cross the plane of the division line in the air.
....
That's exactly my point to Bob. That's a worthless test question because it discusses something no one ever gets confused about. The confusion, understandably, is a ball that gains BC status while in continuous TC after previously being in the FC. As far as I can tell in that test question, the ball never touched the floor in the backcourt, thus duh, it didn't gain BC status until the A2 caught the ball.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 04:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That's exactly my point to Bob. That's a worthless test question because it discusses something no one ever gets confused about. The confusion, understandably, is a ball that gains BC status while in continuous TC after previously being in the FC. As far as I can tell in that test question, the ball never touched the floor in the backcourt, thus duh, it didn't gain BC status until the A2 caught the ball.
It's not a test question, it's an answer by the secretary rules-editor to a question submitted to him.

My interp is that the ball hitting the floor before A gets to it is implied (but I agree it could be stated). I don't think I've ever seen a ball deflected to the back court that went more than a couple of feet before hitting the floor (or being caught).
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 08:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
It wasn't as bad as that:

9:09 Post 1 Jqb12 Question
10:23 Post 5 DrKildare Wrong Answer
10:26 Post 6 Nevadaref Answer Questioned
10:47 Post 9 BigCat Right Answer
11:09 Post 13 Nevadaref Answer Confirmed



JRutledge has a good point, ten minutes is a lot shorter than two hours.
Not sure if I'm impressed with you spending the time on the computer to track the history, or saddened by it.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 09:25am
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Alexa, Play Santana's Soul Sacrifice ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jqb12 View Post
Not sure if I'm impressed with you spending the time on the computer to track the history, or saddened by it.
I asked Alexa to do it for me. After that, she made my dinner and did my laundry.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 08, 2019, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I asked Alexa to do it for me. After that, she made my dinner and did my laundry.
Very cool.......and mighty efficient!
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
So, to clarify...

NFHS: Count begins when team control in the backcourt begins. Following a throw-in, that means the count begins once player control is established in the backcourt (true team control). When the ball is deflected by the defense into the backcourt but is still in the offense's control, the count begins as soon as the ball gains backcourt status.

NCAA-M/W: Count begins when the ball is touched in the backcourt by the team in control. The count begins when the throw-in ends when touched in the backcourt. When there is no team control, the count begins when player control in the backcourt begins.

Correct?
I'm looking for clarification on this too!

For NFHS, I would say on a throw-in, the 10 second could would not start until player control was established in the BC. Correct?
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 02:26pm
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I'm So Dizzy My Head Is Spinning (Tommy Roe, 1969) …

Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpferee View Post
For NFHS, I would say on a throw-in, the 10 second could would not start until player control was established in the BC.
Always listen to SC Official. Wait ... I'm being told ... bob who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
NFHS: Count begins when team control in the backcourt begins. Following a throw-in, that means the count begins once player control is established in the backcourt. When the ball is deflected by the defense into the backcourt but is still in the offense's control, the count begins as soon as the ball gains backcourt status.
Sit back and enjoy some 1960's bubblegum pop:

https://youtu.be/_rTmaU3lvn4
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 10, 2019 at 03:46pm.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 02:54pm
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Like a whirlpool, it never ends.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 03:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Your last point is the reason....there is only team control on a throwin for fouls. Real and full team control only begins when an inbounds player gains control.
I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach View Post
I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?
Good question, but you (know you are) asking the wrong person.

It's in the various POEs. FED could change that. No one here can.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 04:09pm
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Team Control, Throwin ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach View Post
... where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?
That's the $64,000.00 question.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.


Now, how are those without access to a 2017-18 rulebook supposed to know this?

By the oral tradition of young basketball officials sitting around a campfire listening to stories about old Points of Emphasis from old, grizzled, veteran officials?



That's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on the left, back when he had a full head of hair.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jan 10, 2019 at 04:18pm.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 10, 2019, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach View Post
I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?
PIAA 2017-2018 POE

Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.
With specific regard to the backcourt violation; a team may not be the last to touch a live ball in the front court and then be the first to touch a live ball in the backcourt, provided that team has establish player control/team control on the playing court (either in the backcourt or frontcourt). BY RULE EXCEPTION, during a throw-in a team may leave the front court, establish player control/team control while airborne and land in the backcourt. This is a legal play and ONLY applies to the first player of the offense who touches the ball PRIOR to the end of the throw-in.
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