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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.
I have never called it in 30 plus years of HS or college. Having said that, Jeff’s video asked something like “do you see anything wrong here...”. I didn’t see anything I’d call and the only thing close to wrong/different was fact that NC player went way in to other side of circle before jump over. I just happen to know that the rules say each jumper stay in his half of circle and note says “during jump ball.” Jump ball isn’t over until hits floor, non jumper etc. I pointed out what rule and note says.
Nothing more, nothing less. 6-3-1 and the note at the end of section 3.

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 02:08pm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 02:10pm
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Like many basketball plays, there are usually three officials and 10 players. Not every player can be watched simultaneously and this certainly applies to a jump ball, especially with one set of official's eyes on the ball. Yes, we only watch for common violations or will pick up extreme violations. Not sure what one poster meant about not crossing the division line ever as we are all familiar with someone stealing the tip by directly crossing the line, usually done when there is one tall and one short jumper. See example here at 20 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBpR8Y-U0M

But again, notice that this is an extreme breaking of the rules not one based on a slight angle of jump landing. I have had this twice in my career, one being crossing the division line and the other being leaving the back of the circle. Sometimes there are rules in place that are created to prevent egregious/rare/extreme acts but their wording also applies to lesser acts. Clearly, the jump-ball wording in the rule book needs amending. Of course, then we sometimes end up with rule books that are too big. The tax code is a good example of this, lol.

Bottom line is that there is nothing to officiate in the OP. Play on.


(Indeed, thanks JRUT)
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 02:23pm
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Jumping Jacks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
bucky, nice video, thanks for sharing.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
He's assuming, as I sometimes do, the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be---and usually is---vastly different.

BillyMac was a career educator and I seem to be (much to my chagrin) a career student. So I think this is just how we're wired.
I'm not one who shies away from analysis. My point is, regardless of the verbiage in the rule book (which I am not arguing), I do not think the NFHS wants or intends for it to be a violation for the a jumper to cross the division line prior to the jump ball ending. It they did intend for it to be a violation it would have been addressed at some point in some decade by a POE or in the preseason guide.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I have never called it in 30 plus years of HS or college. Having said that, Jeff’s video asked something like “do you see anything wrong here...”. I didn’t see anything I’d call and the only thing close to wrong/different was fact that NC player went way in to other side of circle before jump over. I just happen to know that the rules say each jumper stay in his half of circle and note says “during jump ball.” Jump ball isn’t over until hits floor, non jumper etc. I pointed out what rule and note says.
Nothing more, nothing less. 6-3-1 and the note at the end of section 3.
That's fine, but that note is in the NFHS rule book. There is no verbiage in the NCAA rule book that says a jumper cannot cross the division line prior to the end of a jump ball.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:35pm
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I can see where the college rule book has info regarding jumpers and their restrictions. Article 4 has their feet on their side in their half circle. That is a restriction that does not end until the jump ball ends, as in article 2.

Section 2. Jump Ball
Art. 1. A jump ball is a method of putting the ball into play at the beginning
of the game or any extra period(s) by tossing it up between two opponents in
the center circle.

Art. 2. A jump ball shall begin when the ball leaves the official’s hand. The jump ball and all jump-ball restrictions shall end when the ball touches a non-jumper, the playing court, basket, backboard, an official or when the ball becomes dead.

Art. 3. Jumpers are the two opposing players vying for the tip during a jump
ball.

Art. 4. For any jump ball, each jumper shall have both feet inside the half of
the center circle that is farther from his team’s basket.

Art. 5. Each jumper may face in either direction.

Art. 6. The referee or designee shall toss the ball upward between the jumpers in a plane at right angles to the sidelines, to a height greater than either of the jumpers can jump and so that the ball will drop between them. The jump ball may be repeated when these provisions are not met.

Art. 7. When the ball touches the playing court without being touched by at
least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss the ball again.

Art. 8. Teammates shall not occupy adjacent positions around the center circle when an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions before the referee is ready to toss the ball.

Art. 9. Players may move around the center circle without breaking the
geometrical cylinder that has the center circle as its base after the ball has left the referees hand(s) during the toss. A player positioned more than 3 feet outside the center circle shall not be subject to these restrictions.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:59pm
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NCAA-Men have 9-8 explicitly stating what is a violation. NFHS has 9-6 that refers back to rule 6-3 for violations.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 04:31pm
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[QUOTE=Raymond;1028175]That's fine, but that note is in the NFHS rule book. There is no verbiage in the NCAA rule book that says a jumper cannot cross the division line prior to the end of a jump ball.[/QUOTE

It isn’t worth this much of our time...
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
NCAA-Men have 9-8 explicitly stating what is a violation. NFHS has 9-6 that refers back to rule 6-3 for violations.
Not sure what your point is. If a jumper lined up next to the other jumper in the wrong half of the circle, you would enforce that because it is a restriction. You are not going to ignore it because it is not a stated violation. Well, maybe you would.

Or, your partner makes a poor toss, jumper A1 quickly runs behind jumper B1, who does not jump, ball comes down, and A1 slaps it to a teammate. Not going to address A1's movement? Just going to play on? Maybe you would.

How about Art 8? Aren't you going to address that restriction when the situation dictates? If an opponent wants a space to which they are legally obliged to have, are you not going to allow it?

It is as if you are arguing that you would only enforce items that are explicitly labeled as violations but I am quite confident that you would enforce restrictions, such as art 8. Why enforce one restriction but not another?

Are you getting choosy in your application of the rules?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 04:34pm
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[QUOTE=BigCat;1028195]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
That's fine, but that note is in the NFHS rule book. There is no verbiage in the NCAA rule book that says a jumper cannot cross the division line prior to the end of a jump ball.[/QUOTE

It isn’t worth this much of our time...
True but I just can't stand lies. Huge pet peeve. Gotta let it go. Forgive me. Will stop now.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 05:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Not sure what your point is. If a jumper lined up next to the other jumper in the wrong half of the circle, you would enforce that because it is a restriction. You are not going to ignore it because it is not a stated violation. Well, maybe you would.
I'm going to tell the jumper to get back on his side of the division line so we can proceed with the jump ball. Maybe YOU would let him stand there and then call a violation.

Quote:
Or, your partner makes a poor toss, jumper A1 quickly runs behind jumper B1, who does not jump, ball comes down, and A1 slaps it to a teammate. Not going to address A1's movement? Just going to play on? Maybe you would.
I'm going to call the toss back, so all the subsequent action would be moot.

Quote:
How about Art 8? Aren't you going to address that restriction when the situation dictates? If an opponent wants a space to which they are legally obliged to have, are you not going to allow it?
Again, addressed before the toss.

Quote:
It is as if you are arguing that you would only enforce items that are explicitly labeled as violations but I am quite confident that you would enforce restrictions, such as art 8. Why enforce one restriction but not another?

Are you getting choosy in your application of the rules?
Remind me again about the time YOU called a violation for a jumper landing on the wrong side of the division line.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 05, 2019, 08:41am
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Riddle Me This ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Remind me again about the time YOU called a violation for a jumper landing on the wrong side of the division line.
Better question, how many officials have observed this and ignored it because they didn't know it was a violation?

Or, how about, how many officials have observed this, knew it was a violation, and ignored it?

Or the more general question, how many officials know this is a violation, including knowing when this specific restriction ended?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jan 05, 2019 at 08:49am.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 05, 2019, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Better question, how many officials have observed this and ignored it because they didn't know it was a violation?



Or, how about, how many officials have observed this, knew it was a violation, and ignored it?



Or the more general question, how many officials know this is a violation, including knowing when this specific restriction ended?
It's a violation. How come there has not been a point of emphasis yet to get us to call it correctly?

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 05, 2019, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It's a violation. How come there has not been a point of emphasis yet to get us to call it correctly?

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Ooh, ooh, I know! Because it is monumentally inconsequential.


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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 05, 2019, 10:16am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Ooh, ooh, I know! Because it is monumentally inconsequential.


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Or because that's not the INTENT of the rule and it's just never been addressed because no one has ever called it. My point from the beginning.

I guarantee you if we all spent the rest of the season calling the violation as written, the next year the rule would be changed so that restriction would end when the tossed ball is touched.

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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Jan 05, 2019 at 10:19am.
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