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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2019, 11:19pm
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Nothing happened here. The ball was rolling around on the floor with no control by anyone, so there is no possibility of a backcourt violation here.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 09:23am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I also thought so until BigCat showed me the light. It's hidden in the note.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Poorly written by NFHS (so what else is new), ending the restriction should be in the rule itself rather than a subsequent note.

I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends. How many U1's are looking where the jumpers are landing?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 09:49am
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Restriction Ends ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.
So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
How many U1's are looking where the jumpers are landing?
Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 09:56am.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 10:00am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.



Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.
If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 10:12am.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 10:09am
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The only problem I see is their poor use of the English language in this video.
"Be ready to officiating from the start of the game"
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 10:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw1ns View Post
The only problem I see is their poor use of the English language in this video.
"Be ready to officiating from the start of the game"
AKA a "typo"

Does "their" = the officials on the game? I don't think the officials on the game posted this video or added the graphics.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 10:36am.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.
The one thing I love about these videos is that people see things that I never even imagine would be thought about. If there is anything I hate about what people see, is they see things that no one would even think to care about.

I have never even thought that a player landing on the other side of the division line as a violation. It ever would have occurred to me that this was even thought of as something to call. I am more worried about if the ball was touched at the proper point and the clock starting properly. Yes, there are times when a player might move or run through the circle that is not a jumper, but still very rare. But never in my career, I can think of that I ever watched where a player landed between the jumpers.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 10:33am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw1ns View Post
The only problem I see is their poor use of the English language in this video.
"Be ready to officiating from the start of the game"
I have nearly a 1000 videos on the site. If you would like to be the editor for all of them and make sure that every word is in place, I will gladly allow you to do so.

Each video takes about 30 minutes tops to make for a minute or more of content. Feel free to give your input on them.

Thanks for your interest in my YouTube videos.

Peace
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 11:36am
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For the past year or two, I have posted a "thank you" to JRutledge for these videos. It might be appropriate to jump the gun and do so now. Thanks!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 11:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I have nearly a 1000 videos on the site. If you would like to be the editor for all of them and make sure that every word is in place, I will gladly allow you to do so.

Each video takes about 30 minutes tops to make for a minute or more of content. Feel free to give your input on them.

Thanks for your interest in my YouTube videos.

Peace
10-4 Rut! I appreciate any content that can generate a discussion. And i appreciate all your hard work! I work in TV so things like that catch my eye. 28 years looking at newscasts will do that to you!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 12:03pm
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Common Jump Ball Violations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT.
BigCat did come up with a valid (although poorly written and well hidden) citation.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Ever since the introduction of the alternating possession arrow, it has been my contention that many otherwise extremely competent officials either don't fully understand and memorize all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, and/or it's difficult to watch for all the many violations and many restrictions that can occur during the jump ball, especially in a two person game.

And we only get to observe various jump ball situations once (usually) a game.

As the umpire in a two person game, I'm watching for common violations, jumpers tapping the ball on the way up, jumpers catching the ball, or jumpers touching the ball more than twice, before the jump ball ends (touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, or the floor). I'll also watch for the ball hitting the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers.

Unless one of the nonjumpers does something really weird, I'm probably not going to observe any non-really-weird violations from them. To avoid some nonjumper violations, as the umpire (or the referee) prejump, I will warn nonjumpers standing within three feet of the jump ball circle not to stand three feet directly behind anybody.

To my point of otherwise extremely competent officials not fully understanding and memorizing all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, several times a year I hear otherwise extremely competent (state tournament late round) varsity officials saying, prejump, "Hold your spots" to all eight nonjumpers, or, "You can't stand behind him”, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, both whom are ten feet off the jump ball circle.

The jump ball is archaic, some jump ball rules are poorly memorized/understood and/or poorly enforced, and we should start games with some other method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 01:03pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line?
He's assuming, as I sometimes do, the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be---and usually is---vastly different.

BillyMac was a career educator and I seem to be (much to my chagrin) a career student. So I think this is just how we're wired.

Last edited by crosscountry55; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 12:19pm.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 12:10pm
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Honest Input ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Each video takes about 30 minutes tops to make for a minute or more of content. Feel free to give your input on them.
Thanks for the offer to give you my honest input on your videos, I hope that you can handle it:

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 01:04pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 12:41pm
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Will This Be On The Test ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... worried about ... the clock starting properly.
Good advice.

It's Friday, good time for a jump ball quiz.

1) Jumper A1 touches the ball more than twice before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

2) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, with his catch being the first touch by any player. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

3) Jumper A1 taps the ball on the way up. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

4) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, his catch being after jumper B1 taps the ball. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

5) Neither jumper A1, nor jumper B1, touches the ball after it reaches its highest point and the ball contacts the floor. Nontossing official sounds his whistle so that the jump ball can be tossed again. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 12:43pm.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 12:55pm
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I Prefer To Know Both ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
... the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be, and usually is, vastly different.
I also do it to try to come up with the correct answer (if the NFHS allows that to be possible), and to reinforce that answer in my own mind. When I'm preaching to the choir, sometimes the choir is me.

There are practical ways to view rules and interpretations, and there are "written test" ways to view rules and interpretation.

I prefer to know both. I know the difference between them, and I know how to apply what I know in a "real" game.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 03:11pm.
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