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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 10:32am
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Misuse Of Team Control Foul ...

I worked with a relatively inexperienced junior varsity official recently.

Both teams in the bonus. Last free throw of two free throws. He’s lead, I’m trail. Free throw misses and bounces on the rim. While ball is still on the rim, partner sounds whistle and puts up fist. I saw the illegal contact ("over the back") by offensive player, but it was in his area of responsibility so I gave him first shot at the call.

As he’s on his way to the table, I’m starting to move the players down the other end and identify the shooter for more free throws, but he stops and tells me, “Possession, no free throws, team control foul”.

Fourth period of a blowout game, so I don’t pursue this on the court.

Post game, locker room, me: “What did you see?”

He tells me that one never shoots free throws on these types of rebounding fouls, so “It’s like a team control foul”.

I explain to him that there's no team control between the free throw release and the control (holding) of the rebound, and while it’s true that we don't shoot team control fouls, this situation isn't a team control foul but is a common foul after the bonus that needs free throws.

He still wouldn't agree with me, and is quite adamant about it, "We never shoot free throws on these types of rebounding fouls".

This is a pretty good junior varsity official, good rules knowledge (except for this), good mechanics, good play calling judgment.

Could he be confusing NFHS rules with another rule set, possibly NBA?

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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Dec 31, 2018 at 10:40am.
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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 10:55am
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I do not believe there is any rules set that this would be the case. Secondly, why didn't you make an issue of it on the court? All you had to say, team control is not going on during a rebound. Then let him answer.

And if you are going to go over it in the locker room, why not show it in the rulebook or casebook? That would have settled the argument or at least got him in the place to prove he was right. Usually, when I am talking to a younger official, they know who I am or that I am a veteran on some level. I am even a clinician in our state so I can play that card, but many people already know this about me. Kind of surprised you just let that discussion go even if it was in the locker room. You are not trying to embarrass him, just show him the rule and he at least has the opportunity to show learn something. That is something I would not just let go on either situation without making it very well known I disagreed with that ruling unless he told me something that said, "He had possession first. And that could have been realistic even the way you describe it. Then it is a judgment call after that point.

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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 11:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...

This is a pretty good junior varsity official, good rules knowledge (except for this), good mechanics, good play calling judgment.

Could he be confusing NFHS rules with another rule set, possibly NBA?
...

I don't care how good of an official he is, I'm not letting a partner kick a rather basic rule. And I don't know what has him confused, but what will unconfused him is getting into the rule book.
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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 12:00pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't care how good of an official he is, I'm not letting a partner kick a rather basic rule.
I agree. Although I'm not going to get into an argument (cf. Rich's famous video), I'd certainly approach my partner with the correct rule at that moment.

Moreover, the fact that it's the 4th quarter of a blow-out is all the more reason to "pursue this on the court." In the circumstances, it's likely that the kid who was fouled is a scrub, and he was deprived of his opportunity to shoot those FTs and score.

Several weeks ago, I was watching as three experienced varsity officials awarded FTs on what could only have been a team control foul. I almost called out, from the stands, "Team control?"
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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 12:09pm
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10-7 Penalties ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... unless he told me something that said, "He had possession first. And that could have been realistic even the way you describe it. Then it is a judgment call after that point.
That's what I thought he may of had, which is why I let it go on the court (plus junior varsity game fourth quarter blowout). We discussed this possibility in the locker room, it would of been an "out" for him, but he insisted the illegal contact was before the rebound.

We even discussed all the types of fouls where free throws aren't taken, player control, team control, double fouls, simultaneous fouls, and common fouls before the bonus, and that his foul this wasn't one of them.

I would have liked to have shown him 10-7 Penalties but he was in a hurry to get home for a family holiday gathering.

I emailed this issue (no name) to my interpreter to discuss it at our next meeting, or to send out an email blast.
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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 12:21pm
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Unruliness ...

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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
I agree. Although I'm not going to get into an argument (cf. Rich's famous video), I'd certainly approach my partner with the correct rule at that moment.
I wasn't sure at the time that he saw the same contact as me.

In hindsight, I did the right thing by waiting until post game, because since the one on one discussion of team control post game didn't work, it certainly wouldn't have worked very well on the court.

Can we charge a stubborn partner with a technical foul for unruliness?
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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 06:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't care how good of an official he is, I'm not letting a partner kick a rather basic rule. And I don't know what has him confused, but what will unconfused him is getting into the rule book.
It is his call. You can bring information to him, but you can’t change his decision if he doesn’t want to. I’m glad that Billy didn’t cause a confrontation on the court. His partner holds some silly belief that “we never shoot on these types of rebounding fouls,” so the guy wasn’t going to change his mind. Time to move on.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 07:12pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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There is a difference between a "confrontation" and a brief conference between officials.
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Old Mon Dec 31, 2018, 08:59pm
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🤷*♂️

Hey next time you all have your Chapter meeting bring it up...I’m going assume that some will side with your partner and most should view it from your view and point that is obviously correct 🤷*♂️👌 and maybe if your partner is in attendance may say🤷*♂️..dang I understand stand now what my partner was saying!!!
“You can lead a horse to water”.....
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2019, 12:16am
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Agenda Item ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattReferee View Post
Hey next time you all have your Chapter meeting bring it up...
I emailed my interpreter and it's already on the agenda for our January meeting.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2019, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It is his call. You can bring information to him, but you can’t change his decision if he doesn’t want to. I’m glad that Billy didn’t cause a confrontation on the court. His partner holds some silly belief that “we never shoot on these types of rebounding fouls,” so the guy wasn’t going to change his mind. Time to move on.

This is not a judgment, but the awarding of the penalty, so it is the crews fault for not applying the rules correctly. It is both officials responsibilty to award the free throws as the rules state.
His "call" is the judgment of the foul. You must change the decision in this case. We are trained to get the call right.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2019, 02:31pm
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Bond, James Bond ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltllng View Post
This is not a judgment, but the awarding of the penalty, so it is the crews fault for not applying the rules correctly.
On the court I was never 100% sure that the foul he called was the same one that I observed and chose not to call.

I'm still not 100% sure that we had the same thing.

He told me "team control" and his penalty (possession, no free throws) matched his label (team control) for the foul.

To paraphrase James Bond (Diamonds Are Forever, 1971), the collars and cuffs match.

https://youtu.be/wLPEeDsZwGs
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 01, 2019 at 03:54pm.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 01, 2019, 02:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It is his call. You can bring information to him, but you can’t change his decision if he doesn’t want to. I’m glad that Billy didn’t cause a confrontation on the court. His partner holds some silly belief that “we never shoot on these types of rebounding fouls,” so the guy wasn’t going to change his mind. Time to move on.
I would agree if he told you that the player was in control of the ball and the foul took place. Then you cannot change the call. But if he tells you that there was no control and this was still at TC foul, then we are having a longer discussion. And I am going to do everything in my power to convince him not to go with that ruling. Because if we shot FTs and we got it wrong, they are not going to just blame the official that called the foul. They are going to blame the crew. Even if this was not a blowout and a very close game, we cannot make that mistake without a discussion. Of course, there is only going to be something that we can change at the end, but I am not going to go into the locker room just assuming he was right. He will know how I feel.

Peace
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