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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 11:13am
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Student From Fan Section Taunts Opposing Player

Story out of Indianapolis from this past weekend's Varsity contest.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ll/2200133002/

I don't have my books handy but If I recall correctly, in one of the books (case, rule, officials manual) it talks about keeping cheerleaders out of the FT lane extended area? I'm looking for that specific wording and wondering if it does (or should) pertain to fans in a case like this...

My personal thought is, with all that goes on with student sections and how they have really evolved over the years to become rowdy and over the top at the HS level, the NFHS/IHSAA ought to have some wording about fans being in this area as well. Outside of walking through to go to your seat, this type of behavior, while intending to be fun for the kids...this went above and beyond sportsmanship.

With all the preaching of sportsmanship and announcements over the PA about it, I do feel the game site admins missed an opportunity to put this kid back in the stands after his first antics. These aren't college kids or pro athletes (and a lot of fan behavior at those levels needs addressed also)...
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 11:43am
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Mocking Those With Disabilities ...

'Nough said.

https://youtu.be/uNXgjnBpxGI
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 12:18pm
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Today's Latin Lesson ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches View Post
... keeping cheerleaders out of the FT lane extended area? I'm looking for that specific wording and wondering if it does pertain to fans in a case like this ...
It's not just cheerleaders.

Basketball Rules Changes - 2016-17
1-20: Non-playing personnel, e.g., spirit participants, media, shall remain outside of the playing area during a 30-second or less time-out during the game. Non-playing personnel shall stand outside the free throw lane lines extended toward the sidelines throughout the game.


E.g. stands for exempli gratia in Latin, which means “for example.” It introduces one or more examples that illustrate something stated. In my opinion it doesn't refer to all examples.

Non-playing personnel can refer to a cheerleader, a photographer, a police officer, a security guard, a coach, a school administrator, a parent, a kid with a sweat mop, or a fan.

It's a safety based rule. Get 'em out of there and keep 'em out of there.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Dec 04, 2018 at 12:29pm.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 12:29pm
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Thanks BillyMac...I knew I wasn't too far off.

It's a situation where it's pissed off a lot of people and most are not buying the kid's story. He's getting vilified on social media (which given he's a kid) is a bad situation in itself. But that's the mentality of today's society...MOB!

I truly feel the administration/game site folks of the HS failed to do their job here and hold a part of the responsibility for this situation.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 03:08pm
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I had a HS classmate with epilepsy. She passed away a year after we graduated as the first of my classmates to do so. It is a serious condition.
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 11:47am
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As a follow up to this...the school now has new guidelines for the fans.

Center Grove issues fan guidelines


So if this is/was a rule, why was this kid allowed down in the FT lane area extended to begin with? When this particular action took place, he'd already been down there a couple times when another FT shooter stepped to the line.

Who owns that...officials, game site admins or both?

Look, I know the HS student sections get rowdy and are getting more "intimate" with the stuff they shout at opposing teams.

Does anyone feel the officials should have went to admin and asked them to have the kid stay in the stands? Would you have? Have you ever?

Just curious on fellow officials thoughts on this. I don't pay much attention to the fans unless it gets personal and prolonged at me.
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 11:51am
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I would have stopped the game to put the kid back in the stands if I saw it.
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 12:21pm
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He's done this on numerous occassions? Wow!

Hope that kids parents are proud of him.
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 12:55pm
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I think we have to be careful with this. I do not know how any of us would really know what or why this kid was doing something. I would probably at best have the game management control the situation, but probably would have no idea why he was acting that way. This is something for the administration to handle.

I had a game last night where a player dunked on a player and the student section went nuts. A couple of kids got on the floor and there was GM there to handle the situation. I did not have to say a word, but it was handled.

Peace
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I think we have to be careful with this. I do not know how any of us would really know what or why this kid was doing something. I would probably at best have the game management control the situation, but probably would have no idea why he was acting that way. This is something for the administration to handle.

I had a game last night where a player dunked on a player and the student section went nuts. A couple of kids got on the floor and there was GM there to handle the situation. I did not have to say a word, but it was handled.

Peace
I agree, but if I see someone come down from the stands and locate himself directly under the basket to distract the FT shooter, I'm addressing it immediately.

It is, after all, a rule that no one is allowed to be on the floor between the lane lines.
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I agree, but if I see someone come down from the stands and locate himself directly under the basket to distract the FT shooter, I'm addressing it immediately.

It is, after all, a rule that no one is allowed to be on the floor between the lane lines.
OK, but they are behind the cheerleaders and near the stand where the schools have allowed people to be. I guess I am thinking of many gyms I have been in where there is plenty of room on the end line. How much are we going to be concerned with what happens in the eyesight of the lane?

Peace
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 03:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
OK, but they are behind the cheerleaders and near the stand where the schools have allowed people to be. I guess I am thinking of many gyms I have been in where there is plenty of room on the end line. How much are we going to be concerned with what happens in the eyesight of the lane?

Peace
See that's where I'm with this...kind of a gray area because of the configuration of where the bleachers are and the fact that kids ARE seated or standing there.

But my argument has been that games site admins had an obligation here... his act was deliberate. It's one thing to wave your arms, scream, shout...while seated or standing AT YOUR SEAT in that first row ...but going down on the floor.....I really feel that should have been addressed after he went down there earlier in the game when the visiting team had another FT shooter at the line.

I don't buy he didn't know the kid had epilepsy as he did enough research on another player who is an IU recruit to have an image of that kids mom printed and plastered on his chest.

I appreciate your input guys...
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 03:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches View Post
I don't buy he didn't know the kid had epilepsy as he did enough research on another player who is an IU recruit to have an image of that kids mom printed and plastered on his chest.

I appreciate your input guys...
All of that could be true, but unless you know the kid or live in that community, you probably as an official have no idea what the history of this kid that is in the stands or the player on the floor. As a matter of fact, the official in the video is not even paying attention to the stands. I am saying we are in an era where all kinds of things have been done to distract shooters on FTs. Often those situations are enforced by game administration. I could even see game administration not knowing in real time what the kid was doing other than being obnoxious. I am not saying what the kid did was right, but I could see how the context was completely missed.

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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 03:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches View Post
See that's where I'm with this...kind of a gray area because of the configuration of where the bleachers are and the fact that kids ARE seated or standing there.

But my argument has been that games site admins had an obligation here... his act was deliberate. It's one thing to wave your arms, scream, shout...while seated or standing AT YOUR SEAT in that first row ...but going down on the floor.....I really feel that should have been addressed after he went down there earlier in the game when the visiting team had another FT shooter at the line.

I don't buy he didn't know the kid had epilepsy as he did enough research on another player who is an IU recruit to have an image of that kids mom printed and plastered on his chest.

I appreciate your input guys...
That's fine that you feel that way, but at the end of the day the "seizure" gesture itself is not an officiating issue. I don't get paid enough to do research and make inferences about what offensive gestures the students might do. If a coach confronts me and says "That student was making fun of my player with epilepsy," I might talk to game admin and leave it to them.

I would address the student deliberately coming down from the bleachers behind the backboard where he isn't allowed to be by rule, but as for the gesture, that's beyond the scope of my responsibility unless he does something that's universally known to be offensive regardless of whom it's directed at (like flipping the bird).
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Old Wed Dec 05, 2018, 04:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
That's fine that you feel that way, but at the end of the day the "seizure" gesture itself is not an officiating issue. I don't get paid enough to do research and make inferences about what offensive gestures the students might do. If a coach confronts me and says "That student was making fun of my player with epilepsy," I might talk to game admin and leave it to them.

I would address the student deliberately coming down from the bleachers behind the backboard where he isn't allowed to be by rule, but as for the gesture, that's beyond the scope of my responsibility unless he does something that's universally known to be offensive regardless of whom it's directed at (like flipping the bird).
Your 2nd statement is what I am looking for as far as conversation between us officials. Do we address his presence there, not what he's doing.

My opinion mirrors what a lot of people around here feel about the gesture ...it seems per-meditated but agree, that's not part of our call as officials. I'm wanting to know if officials would address him being in that area.

It's a good subject to discuss as I think there are many teaching lessons here for the fan, player, officials and games site admins.
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