Papa's Got A Brand New Bag (James Brown, 1965) ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

But is there any chance that the girls will end up getting short changed (not getting the best officials) for the regular season, and/or the state tournament?
....

I'm thinking yes, that will be a residual effect. But it also might open up opportunities for some younger, up-and-coming officials to work some higher profile games on the girls side.

What would be interesting is if a female official were to request only boys games.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm thinking yes, that will be a residual effect. But it also might open up opportunities for some younger, up-and-coming officials to work some higher profile games on the girls side.

Good thought.

Thanks for reading my lengthy post. I probably can't disagree with anyone's opinion because I can clearly see both sides of this issue, from the standpoint of a student athlete, and from the standpoint of an official, from the "choice is good" side, and from the "best official" gets the game side.

Originally Posted by Raymond

What would be interesting is if a female official were to request only boys games.

The plot thickens.

What happens when some principals (many female), athletic directors (many female), and coaches of girls teams (both male, and female) find out that some of our best officials can't be assigned to their girls games because some of the best officials have opted out of working girls regular season games?

What happens when some boys coaches who voted for a great officials (who worked both genders regular season) find out that some great officials aren't working the boys state tournament because these great officials were forced to pick a gender and decided to work girls tournament games (maybe with the hope of advancing to higher rounds)?

[Nevadaref]

I can prove that the girls games get worse officiating in my area. The association gives all officials a rating. Let's say those numbers are 1-5 with 1 being the best.
It is a simple process to compare the quality of officiating on the games. Take the ratings of the officials and sum them. The lower the total, the better that the crew rates. If after doing the math, the boys crews average 5.2 and girls crews average 6.3, we have quantitatively demonstrated that worse officials are being provided for the girls contests.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I can prove that the girls games get worse officiating in my area. The association gives all officials a rating. The lower the total, the better that the crew rates. If after doing the math, the boys crews average 5.2 and girls crews average 6.3, we have quantitatively demonstrated that worse officials are being provided for the girls contests.

And your willing to put this in writing? Where all with access to the internet can see it?

What if your school principals see this? What if your school athletic directors see this? What if coaches of your girls teams see this? What if girl players in your area see this? What if the parents of girls players in your area see this? Some of them may be attorneys. What if someone for the American Civil Liberties Union sees this? What if a Title IX coordinator sees this?

And worse, what if Gloria Steinem sees this? Do you really want to deal with a former Playboy bunny?



I hope that your real name isn't Nevadaref, and that you really don't live in Nevada. Even then, they'll still find you. Right after they find the high level White House official that wrote that anonymous op-ed piece in the New York Times. They'll find him, and they'll find you. Watch out for the black helicopters.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When I saw the title of this thread being posted from by an "associate" of mine from CT where I (because I am from Youngstown, Ohio) have a number of "friends", I thought it was about large officiating bags which can be very useful for other activities.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

I am so happy I don't have to put up with this nonsense in Illinois. If I had to work girls games, I would never have started officiating high school basketball. It is pretty obvious in the Chicago area that the overall quality of girls officials is significantly lower than the boys officials. Most of the men doing high school girls games in this area are doing them because they were not good enough to get boys games or a full schedule of boys games.

And who cares what the principals, athletic directors, coaches, or Gloria Steinem thinks. As an independent contractor, I get to choose for whom and when I work. If they want better officials, they should make their product better.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I am so happy I don't have to put up with this nonsense in Illinois. If I had to work girls games, I would never have started officiating high school basketball. It is pretty obvious in the Chicago area that the overall quality of girls officials is significantly lower than the boys officials. Most of the men doing high school girls games in this area are doing them because they were not good enough to get boys games or a full schedule of boys games.

That's the point of view I wanted to hear. And I get it I get it 100%. I can also see the other side, but I still get it. Why should I work games I really don't want to work. Maybe I'll put less effort in the game if I really don't want to be there. Is that good for the game?

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I can prove that the girls games get worse officiating in my area. The association gives all officials a rating. Let's say those numbers are 1-5 with 1 being the best.
It is a simple process to compare the quality of officiating on the games. Take the ratings of the officials and sum them. The lower the total, the better that the crew rates. If after doing the math, the boys crews average 5.2 and girls crews average 6.3, we have quantitatively demonstrated that worse officials are being provided for the girls contests.

"Worse officiating" can mean different things. e.g. An official can be completely competent for both genders but simply can't keep up with boys.

Originally Posted by johnny d

I am so happy I don't have to put up with this nonsense in Illinois. If I had to work girls games, I would never have started officiating high school basketball. It is pretty obvious in the Chicago area that the overall quality of girls officials is significantly lower than the boys officials. Most of the men doing high school girls games in this area are doing them because they were not good enough to get boys games or a full schedule of boys games.

And who cares what the principals, athletic directors, coaches, or Gloria Steinem thinks. As an independent contractor, I get to choose for whom and when I work. If they want better officials, they should make their product better.

Unfortunately no choice here in SC. Work both genders or don't work. Games are assigned as G/B DHs.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

When I saw the title of this thread being posted from by an "associate" of mine from CT where I (because I am from Youngstown, Ohio) have a number of "friends", large officiating bags can be very useful for other activities.

You mean your friends in East Haven, Connecticut. It has the highest percentage if Italian Americans in the state with the highest percentage of Italian Americans. As a little tyke, I lived there. The only Irish family in town. They made us sit in the back of the church on Sundays. The doctor always checked me for potato blight, "just in case".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You mean your friends in East Haven, Connecticut. It has the highest percentage if Italian Americans in the state with the highest percentage of Italian Americans. As a little tyke, I lived there. The only Irish family in town. They made us sit in the back of the church on Sundays. The doctor always checked me for potato blight, "just in case".

I always thought that you were a "friend" of Whitey Bulger and moved from MA to CT to look after his "business" interests, .

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I always thought that you were a "friend" of Whitey Bulger and moved from MA to CT to look after his "business" interests.

If you live in East Haven, and want a "slice", just stick out your hand and it appears. You never have to go very far.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

No choice here in SC. You work doubleheaders (girls then boys) or you don't work.

Certainly makes it nice and simple.

So, let me think, the boys get the "tired" officials? Parents of girls have to rush home from work to see the game, but parents of boys can just leisurely drive home, get a bite, maybe a "slice", and go to the game?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good thought.

Thanks for reading my lengthy post...

I didn't read all of your original post, I skimmed through and portions caught my attention.

Also, you added quite a bit to your post after I had already responded.

[Rich]

I assign varsity games only for 24 schools. I can hire whoever I want.

There are a few officials where I will honor a boys-only request. I know these officials, many of them work college for an assigner who will not allow them to work any girls/women hoops. They're good people, they ask in the right way, and they appreciate what they do get from me.

There are a few officials who have asked for boys only because they see the first group getting boys only -- and I told them if they don't work girls, they aren't getting anything. They haven't earned that from me or other assigners here (one crew I remember had about 4 years experience). No skin off my whatever.

I've always worked both. The one year I decided to only work boys games, I got assigned to work the state tournament for girls. At that point I simply started working girls games again. The conversations with assigners here were awkward, too.

How do I feel about the whole "girls officials are worse" thing?

Regarding ratings -- if you put the same people from boys games onto girls games, their ratings would be worse. That's my experience -- my boys ratings are considerably higher than my girls ratings EVERY YEAR. I won't call every little bump a foul and many of those coaches expect that.

Furthermore, I find it much easier to work a boys game. Much easier to get into a rhythm, much easier to make a call/no-call decision on contact, etc.

Finally, as someone who has now assigned for 5 years -- those who think they're great officials aren't always so in the eyes of the schools and coaches. And I've weeded out people who really don't want to be at my smaller schools, too.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

I know these officials, many of them work college for an assigner who will not allow them to work any girls/women hoops.

"Independent contractors"