Ball thrown to oneself off backboard - legal?

[JRutledge]

I cannot believe (well I can) why Billy keeps arguing over a very rare situation with the possibility of some related play being what he thinks it is. When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted? I know as a semi-college one myself, I do not think I have ever seen a player try this in a game. I think the last time I can think of is during the Duke-UNLV game when UNLV won running away over Duke in 1990.

Peace

[Raymond]

I have a new interpretation:

If over 25% of the responses in a thread are from BillyMac, the question has already been adequately answered for everyone else.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... a very rare situation ... When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted?

Agree. I have never observed this play in any of my games, nor have I ever observed it in any high school game, and I've observed, or worked, a lot of high school games over almost four decades.

When it happens the first time, I want to call it correctly, not guess to myself, "LeBron James does this all the time so it must be legal. I'm not going to penalize a player because he's athletic." Nor do I want to guess to myself, "Wow that's a lot of steps so it must be a travel".

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot believe (well I can) why Billy keeps arguing over a very rare situation with the possibility of some related play being what he thinks it is. When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted? I know as a semi-college one myself, I do not think I have ever seen a player try this in a game. I think the last time I can think of is during the Duke-UNLV game when UNLV won running away over Duke in 1990.

Peace

Lebron recently did it although NBA rules obviously applied. I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

By digging deep into the grammar/wording of various sources, I do indeed see BM's point. I also understand the points made by others.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (b) the opponent’s backboard;RULING: In (b), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

Interesting that the case indicates that throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a dribble but yet that action does not fit the definition of a dribble.

Indeed, there are loopholes in the rule/case books and often times they lead to weird/lengthy, and borderline irrelevant, debates. Makes it fun though doesn't it?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Lebron recently did it although NBA rules obviously applied. I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

By digging deep into the grammar/wording of various sources, I do indeed see BM's point. I also understand the points made by others.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (b) the opponent’s backboard;RULING: In (b), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

Interesting that the case indicates that throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a dribble but yet that action does not fit the definition of a dribble.

Indeed, there are loopholes in the rule/case books and often times they lead to weird/lengthy, and borderline irrelevant, debates. Makes it fun though doesn't it?

Why doesn't it fit the definition of a dribble?

If you reference the definition of ball location, it does by way of saying the backboard is treated as if it were part of the floor....

Rule 4-4
ART. 4 . . . A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual’s location.
ART. 5 . . . A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds; see also 4-15-1.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you reference the definition of ball location, it does by way of saying the backboard is treated as if it were part of the floor....

Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why doesn't it fit the definition of a dribble?

If you reference the definition of ball location, it does by way of saying the backboard is treated as if it were part of the floor....

Lol, you ask why it does not fit the definition of a dribble and then cite the definition of something else, ball location. Huh? I simply said it does not fit the definition of a dribble and indeed, it does not. Besides, that is regarding ball location, nothing else like dribbling/traveling/carrying/etc. IOW, it is treated as being inbounds when it hits the backboard, not treated the same as being a dribble.

Strange that it is neither a pass, shot, nor a dribble. What is it then? Strange that we can have a player have control of the ball, throw it against the backboard, change positions on the court, regain control of the ball in the air, and do these actions repeatedly.......and it is all legal....and nothing would go in the stat book other than elapsed time. No passes, no assists, no shot attempts, no rebounds, no etc. Not sure if that could happen any other way in the game of basketball.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My best was to dunk a golf ball. I could never move up to dunking a tennis ball. A basketball was never part of the equation. Never. Ever. Not even close.

I did not dunk it either, just threw it off the backboard to myself and then shot a lay-up.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Lol, you ask why it does not fit the definition of a dribble and then cite the definition of something else, ball location. Huh? I simply said it does not fit the definition of a dribble and indeed, it does not. Besides, that is regarding ball location, nothing else like dribbling/traveling/carrying/etc. IOW, it is treated as being inbounds when it hits the backboard, not treated the same as being a dribble.

Strange that is is neither a pass, shot, nor a dribble. What is it then? Strange that we can have a player have control of the ball, throw it against the backboard, change positions on the court, regain control of the ball in the air, and do these actions repeatedly.......and it is all legal....and nothing would go in the stat book other than elapsed time. No passes, no assists, no shot attempts, no rebounds, no etc. Not sure if that could happen any other way in the game of basketball.



I did not dunk it either, just threw it off the backboard to myself and then shot a lay-up.

The rule I quoted says the backboard is defined to be the same as the floor. Thus, the ball is, by definition, effectively being thrown to the "floor" when it is being thrown off the backboard. Thus it is a dribble.

ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds

However, if you're talking about your own backboard, it too is the floor and would be a dribble, but another rule precludes that from being a dribble. Why? I don't know. The way the rules play out, it is being treated as if it were a try without it actually being a try. I guess is so that we don't have to determine if it was a try or not (unless there is a foul which necessitates that decision).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... talking about your own backboard, it too is the floor and would be a dribble, but another rule precludes that from being a dribble ... The way the rules play out, it is being treated as if it were a try without it actually being a try.

I also find Fundamental 19 to be odd. I would love to know it's original intent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

I do indeed see BM's point ... Makes it fun though doesn't it?

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but see my most recent post.

Agree, it is fun, especially in the summer, the off season. It also helps us to understand the rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Lebron recently did it ... I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

My best was to dunk a golf ball. I could never move up to dunking a tennis ball. A basketball was never part of the equation. Never. Ever. Not even close.