Jump Ball, then . . .

[bob jenkins]

The "defensive player" exception wouldn't apply during the period immediately after a throw-in before TC inbounds was established. I don't know why it would apply during the same period after a jump ball.

That said, the "right" call is no call.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The "defensive player" exception wouldn't apply during the period immediately after a throw-in before TC inbounds was established. I don't know why it would apply during the same period after a jump ball.

That, I think, is the reason this is such an interesting play. There is, admittedly, a gap in the rules that does not expressly cover this precise and highly infrequent situation. If it happened right in front of me, my trained impulse would be a no-call due to what I understand about the "while on defense" exception in 9-9-3. That might not be perfectly correct, but it arrives at the same place as Bob, and life goes on without a whistle.

If anything, it makes for a great review of the tenets of the rules regarding backcourt, team control, location of the ball, etc.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Freddy

If anything, it makes for a great review of the tenets of the rules regarding backcourt, team control, location of the ball, etc.

Nice video Freddy. Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The "defensive player" exception wouldn't apply during the period immediately after a throw-in before TC inbounds was established.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Because there is no team control during the period immediately after a throwin, and thus, no offensive, nor defensive, players?

Lack of team control during the period immediately after a throwin (and, thus lack of offensive, and defensive, players) continues until one team gains player control, and thus, team control?

Same thing (lack of offensive, and defensive, players) during a jump ball continues until one team gains player control, and thus, team control?

9-9-3: ... while on defense, a player may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Because there is no team control during the period immediately after a throwin, and thus, no offensive, nor defensive, players?

Lack of team control during the period immediately after a throwin (and, thus lack of offensive, and defensive, players) continues until one team gains player control, and thus, team control?

Same thing (lack of offensive, and defensive, players) during a jump ball continues until one team gains player control, and thus, team control?

9-9-3: ... while on defense, a player may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.

Would there be any difference in the OP for NCAA/NBA/FIBA rules? To my knowledge, team control exists on a throw-in at those levels when the ball is placed at the disposal of Team A (the team that will be conducting the throw-in), and team control persists until a shot is attempted, the other team gains control of the ball, or the ball becomes dead. Because team control exists on a throw-in, the shot clock (and backcourt count) start when the ball is touched inbounds on a ball legally thrown in to the backcourt.

However, no team control initially exists for a jump ball under any set of rules, until player control is established. In that scenario, there will not be a backcourt violation until a player gains control in the frontcourt and transfers the ball to the backcourt. If that is the case, then the OP situation (defender deflecting and controlling a jump ball) is not different for NCAA/NBA/FIBA rules, but a situation with a throw-in might be different, since NBA and FIBA do not allow the ball to be thrown in to the backcourt until the final 2 minutes of regulation or overtime.

[BillyMac]

Again, for the record, I hate jump balls. To start the game, just give the ball to the visiting team at the division line across from the table and start the alternating possession arrow procedure for the rest of the game, including any possible overtimes.

(Hopefully, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., won't have his reading glasses on, and won't be able to read this post, otherwise he'll write one of his famous three pages long, "good old days", posts. I really don't care that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., was James Naismith's college roommate, and the best man at Naismith's wedding, and taught Naismith everything about the rules of basketball.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Would there be any difference in the OP for NCAA/NBA/FIBA rules?

However, no team control initially exists for a jump ball under any set of rules, until player control is established.

There's no difference.

In that scenario, there will not be a backcourt violation until a player gains control in the frontcourt and transfers the ball to the backcourt.

And that's what happened in the OP

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Because there is no team control during the period immediately after a throwin, and thus, no offensive, nor defensive, players?

There is team control, but only for the purpose of a TC foul.

We went around and around on this many years ago when the TC during a throw-in was put in place. The FED has confirmed that if the OP was a throw-in, by either white or blue, the play would be a BC violation. See these interps from just last year -- especially #4:

SITUATION 3: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s frontcourt. A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. A2 jumps from the team’s frontcourt, catches the ball
in the air and lands in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. The throw-in ends when it is legally touched by B1. When A2 gains possession/control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when A2 lands in the backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

SITUATION 4: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the team’s backcourt (Team B’s frontcourt). A1’s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from his/her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team B. The throw-in ends with B1’s deflection (legal touch). When B2 gains possession/control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when B2 lands in backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See these interps from just last year ...

Nice citations. Thanks.

So are you saying that because there is no team control that there is no backcourt defensive steal exception and that the video is a backcourt violation?

Very interesting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice citations. Thanks.

So are you saying that because there is no team control that there is no backcourt defensive steal exception and that the video is a backcourt violation?

I think that if the FED were being consistent they would say that, by rule, the play presented is a BC violation.

I think if we were "inventing" basketball and were discussing this play, we would say that it should be legal and write the rule to accomplish that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think that if the FED were being consistent they would say that, by rule, the play presented is a BC violation ... discussing this play, we would say that it should be legal and write the rule to accomplish that.

Great.

A year from now we can expect the NFHS to publish a press release with a cryptic backcourt jump ball no team control rule change exception that can be debated ad nauseam here on the Forum until the NFHS confirms what their intent really was.

I'll be the Forum member debating (and hoping, and, of course, that will shade my opinion) that the intent of the NFHS was to abolish all jump balls.

[bucky]

Guess I must be misunderstanding something....

(presuming the blue jersey did not have control and this is not a defensive player situation)

Looks like BC violation to me. Actually seems quite obvious. The jump ball ended, player was in his FC, jumped, gained control of the ball, and landed in his BC. This was not a throw-in in which case that description would be legal. This is not the first player to touch the ball after the initial jump ball tap, in which case that description would also be legal.

Also not sure why BM said "Because there is no team control during the period immediately after a throwin," unless it was part of his question.