Mechanics and clock situations (Video)

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You would do that in an NCAA game or an NFHS game?

NCAA, I would subtract 0.3 automatically. NFHS, I would do so as well, if the officials instantly realize that the clock failed to start. Since NFHS is silent on this situation, I will use a solution that is there: the NCAA solution.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Since NFHS is silent on this situation ...

Silent?

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[ilyazhito]

What I meant is that NFHS has no explicit coverage in the rules for a situation where the clock starts and is immediately stopped, or where the clock is immediately stopped because it failed to start. NCAA does, and that is why I would use the NCAA rule to cover this gap. The solution to (c) in your example says that 10ths of a second need to be taken off. I would take off .3, because it takes that much time to catch a ball and do something else with it (by rule, one cannot catch and shoot with .3 or less on the clock).

[JRutledge]

Another, "We are making this way too complicated" situation.

If you know the clock was supposed run, take some time off the clock. What it means as definite knowledge is really not that deep. Yes the NCAA has an exact time that should at the very least come off the clock, but what if more than .3 should have come off the clock? Can people stop making something that is not that hard so complicated?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Another, "We are making this way too complicated" situation.

If you know the clock was supposed run, take some time off the clock. What it means as definite knowledge is really not that deep. Yes the NCAA has an exact time that should at the very least come off the clock, but what if more than .3 should have come off the clock? Can people stop making something that is not that hard so complicated?

Peace

It makes it hard to keep it simple when there are those who suggest that something be done that is counter to the rules. The simple thing is to take off whatever time you "know" to have elapsed, not guess at some number.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It makes it hard to keep it simple when there are those who suggest that something be done that is counter to the rules. The simple thing is to take off whatever time you "know" to have elapsed, not guess at some number.

Well, there are still people that make that complicated. Taking time off is not an exact science. So if you take off 7 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds, there are people that will claim you do not have definite knowledge to make the distinction.

Peace

[UNIgiantslayers]

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...situation.html

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

NCAA, I would subtract 0.3 automatically. NFHS, I would do so as well, if the officials instantly realize that the clock failed to start. Since NFHS is silent on this situation, I will use a solution that is there: the NCAA solution.

The NFHS isn't silent on the situation. You're making up your own rule. The NFHS says you can take time off based on definitely knowledge and definite knowledge is comprised of counts that you may have had. That is it. If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period. You don't say it must have been at least X because the NCAA does it. That just is not supported by rule (in NFHS).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS says you can take time off based on definitely knowledge and definite knowledge is comprised of counts that you may have had. That is it. If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period.

Except when the NFHS says that you can:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Except when the NFHS says that you can:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

In a or b, I would not take off any time. In c, I would take off 0.3 seconds.
Returning to the clock situation in the OP, how is it possible that not one of the three officials remembers the time when the held ball happened? Even if that happened, the scorer (or alternate official) would have known that the clock should have stopped, and the time that the whistle was blown. To quote Hawk Harrelson "That was so bad, that was absolutely BRUTAL!" I'm sad for, frustrated about, and ashamed for the officials at this game. I would be frustrated, embarrassed, and/or angry if something like that happened with a crew that I was on. SMH.

[deecee]

I would challenge the statement "If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period."

Ball is inbounded in back court and dribbled to FC, passed around, shot taken, etc before its picked up that clock never started.

Any of the officials will have 100% certainty that up to X seconds have passed. What that number is up to the officials to come to consensus on but you can be 100% certain that a number greater than 0 should be deducted. Why does it have to be an all or nothing scenario? Why do we leave ALL the time on OR only the exact amount remaining? Why can't "common sense and logic" be applied to "official information"?

[JRutledge]

Unless the NF defines this in a very specific way like the NCAA has, then what you do ultimately is up to you. We know when a certain amount of time has gone off. We do not have a monitor to verify that information. And that is why it is more important for us at the high school level to really watch the clock. When we don't, then it leads to more speculation. But honestly very few times have I had anyone complain that much about the time when we make an adjustment. And if they do complain, then not their decision in the end. I also always consult with partners when I can and usually we can come to some idea. I think overthink this as well as many other things we do based on some vague rule.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

I would challenge the statement "If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period."

Ball is inbounded in back court and dribbled to FC, passed around, shot taken, etc before its picked up that clock never started.

Any of the officials will have 100% certainty that up to X seconds have passed. What that number is up to the officials to come to consensus on but you can be 100% certain that a number greater than 0 should be deducted. Why does it have to be an all or nothing scenario? Why do we leave ALL the time on OR only the exact amount remaining? Why can't "common sense and logic" be applied to "official information"?

It isn't all or nothing. It is definite or nothing. If you got to 8 in the backcourt, you can take off that 8. If then, in the FC, you got to 4 on the 5 count 3 times, you can take off 12 more. You can't take off for the gaps between the counts unless, for some reason, you were counting then too. You take off any seconds you know to have elapsed and don't fudge for the gaps where you don't know how long it was.

Why? That is how the rules say to handle it. If they want us to guess and make up something, they'd change the rule to remove definite knowledge and say just wing it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It isn't all or nothing. It is definite or nothing. If you got to 8 in the backcourt, you can take off that 8. If then, in the FC, you got to 4 on the 5 count 3 times, you can take off 12 more. You can't take off for the gaps between the counts unless, for some reason, you were counting then too. You take off any seconds you know to have elapsed and don't fudge for the gaps where you don't know how long it was.

Is anyone seriously suggesting this is what you do?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? That is how the rules say to handle it. If they want us to guess and make up something, they'd change the rule to remove definite knowledge and say just wing it.

Again, not sure anyone said, "wing it." But if you know the clock was stopped and you look up and the clock never moved, then you can take some time off the clock based on what you know should have gone off. Not an exact science but it would be reasonable to always take a second off in those situations. You might take off more if there were multiple dribbles or slow movement up the court. Either way, how is anyone going to really know but you? And you can ask for some information from table people and sometimes even a coach or two might have some insight, but in the end, this is your decision.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It isn't all or nothing. It is definite or nothing. That is how the rules say to handle it. If they want us to guess and make up something, they'd change the rule to remove definite knowledge and say just wing it.

Maybe that's what the rulebook states, but the NFHS interpretation states otherwise. It's definite, or nothing, or an educated guess in this specific circumstance:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Also, what we do to correctly answer a written question on a rules exam may be little different than what we do, with our partner's input, in a real game situation.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... very few times have I had anyone complain that much about the time when we make an adjustment ... I also always consult with partners when I can and usually we can come to some idea.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... you can take some time off the clock based on what you know should have gone off. Not an exact science but it would be reasonable to always take a second off in those situations. You might take off more if there were multiple dribbles or slow movement up the court ... And you can ask for some information from table people and sometimes even a coach or two might have some insight ...

Sometimes we just have to take the bull by the horns and officiate the game according to intent and purpose to the best to our ability under the circumstance presented to us in a real game of basketball, as opposed to taking a written test. I know that it's slippery slope ("What other rules do you ignore BillyMac"), but sometimes we have to try to do what's seems fair to everybody. Note I that said sometimes. I'm not a big loose with the rules guy, but sometimes we just have to do what we have to do.

Hopefully the ruling slips under the radar and the phone doesn't ring the next morning. If it does, then we go the mea culpa route.

That being said, I'm using definite counts as much as reasonably possible, as advocated by Camron Rust ("Eight seconds of a ten second count. Four seconds of a five second count. Two seconds of a three second count. Plus the two seconds I counted in my head once I realized the clock hadn't started. We're running down sixteen seconds off the game clock. What? Twenty seconds? Sorry coach. That's all we can run off with definite knowledge. I'm not running down twenty seconds.").