Mechanics and clock situations (Video)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I guess so. The CCA manual recommends that an out-of-area official wanting a call should make an extra blast on his whistle, and that is what the C would have done in an NCAA game, if it was pregamed that it was the lead's play. Is there a similar procedure in the NFHS manual?

However, the play on the video was on the center official's side of the court, so he should be the one responsible. If it was me as the center, I would have made the call, because it was on my side, and I had the better angle. On center-side drives, C is the primary official, transition or no transition, and the Lead's interjection started this whole kettle of fish.

The problem as I see it you keep talking in absolutes when there are no absolutes in these situations. The play was in transition, so there is no primary coverage area clearly defined at that point of the play. Then you have a situation that even if it was the Center's call, the Lead took a play that they normally take or would normally make a decision on as it is coming to them. This is also not a college game so the CCA manual means nothing here.

Since you mentioned what was discussed in the pre-game as that would prevent this situation, I have to ask what would be resolved if you have officials that disagree on how this was to be handled? At most camps and training I have attended, usually, the position is that the C or T simply "post" their foul and do nothing until they are absolutely sure no one else has a whistle. When it is clear that they are alone, they can make a signal. But the C in this case took a long time to make his call and I am wondering if he was not sure what he was going to call as opposed to not seeing the L when he blew his whistle? There would be no blarge/double foul if the C just kept his arm up in the air and did nothing. This situation certainly was a play where you would almost have to suspect there will be another official making a call here. Again the problem as I see it is you have to decipher what philosophy is going to prevail and this has many elements to it for sure.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

However, the play on the video was on the center official's side of the court, so he should be the one responsible. If it was me as the center, I would have made the call, because it was on my side, and I had the better angle. On center-side drives, C is the primary official, transition or no transition, and the Lead's interjection started this whole kettle of fish.

That drive was right down the middle. The contact even happened on the L's side of the lane. Normally, I'd say this is the L's call. That said, the L was way out of position to make that call and got it wrong as a result.

[ilyazhito]

JRut, the reason why I mentioned the CCA Manual is because a specific procedure exists if an official wants to make a call outside his area. I wanted to know if the NFHS mechanics manual has something similar. Just because I mention another level does not mean that my question is a priori irrelevant.

Camron, I would agree with you that the Lead made a call while out of position. One can see on the video that the defender was moving into the dribbler, so a player control call would not be defensible. Unless the Lead saw something really different, like the dribbler warding off the defender with an arm, or another offensive player fouling, he should not have made a call. Unfortunately, NFHS rules do not allow officials to get together and make a single call (as NCAAW rules do) when two signals are given, so both officials had to report their separate fouls to the table, and the L had to face the music from the offensive team's bench.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS says you can take time off based on definitely knowledge and definite knowledge is comprised of counts that you may have had. That is it. If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period.

Except when the NFHS says that you can:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

JRut, the reason why I mentioned the CCA Manual is because a specific procedure exists if an official wants to make a call outside his area. I wanted to know if the NFHS mechanics manual has something similar. Just because I mention another level does not mean that my question is a priori irrelevant.

Mechanics at any level are guides. They are there to give some rules of engagement but in the real world, you have to know when to use them as hard fast rules and when to ignore the details based on the play or situation in front of you.

And if you ever go to a higher level camp, no one cares what you think the book says if a clinician is telling you how to interact in a play with your partners. The mechanics books do not cover every possible situation.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

I was not saying that the mechanics manual was something absolute, but asking if there are procedures to handle an out of area call under NFHS mechanics the way there is under college mechanics. In the absence of specific guidance to the contrary, I would borrow the suggestion from the CCA manual to give an extra toot on the whistle for an out-of-area call, if I was ever in a situation where I needed to make one. The OP situation was in a gray area, but since the play started from the center's side, and C was in a better position to rule on it, C should have taken his call and sold it all the way.

The two situations in the videos showed that the crew was out of sync, because there was no shared understanding of what to do on either the blarge play or the clock issue on the held ball at the end of the third quarter. By the third quarter, there is presumably enough time for the crew to get on the same page. I thought that State Tournament officials would be better, but every day you learn something (even if it is what to avoid). These videos are probably good as "what not to do" material at an association training session, whether we are working a state tournament game that is televised, or a middle school game in front of <30 people in the stands.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Except when the NFHS says that you can:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

In a or b, I would not take off any time. In c, I would take off 0.3 seconds.
Returning to the clock situation in the OP, how is it possible that not one of the three officials remembers the time when the held ball happened? Even if that happened, the scorer (or alternate official) would have known that the clock should have stopped, and the time that the whistle was blown. To quote Hawk Harrelson "That was so bad, that was absolutely BRUTAL!" I'm sad for, frustrated about, and ashamed for the officials at this game. I would be frustrated, embarrassed, and/or angry if something like that happened with a crew that I was on. SMH.

[deecee]

I would challenge the statement "If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period."

Ball is inbounded in back court and dribbled to FC, passed around, shot taken, etc before its picked up that clock never started.

Any of the officials will have 100% certainty that up to X seconds have passed. What that number is up to the officials to come to consensus on but you can be 100% certain that a number greater than 0 should be deducted. Why does it have to be an all or nothing scenario? Why do we leave ALL the time on OR only the exact amount remaining? Why can't "common sense and logic" be applied to "official information"?

[JRutledge]

Unless the NF defines this in a very specific way like the NCAA has, then what you do ultimately is up to you. We know when a certain amount of time has gone off. We do not have a monitor to verify that information. And that is why it is more important for us at the high school level to really watch the clock. When we don't, then it leads to more speculation. But honestly very few times have I had anyone complain that much about the time when we make an adjustment. And if they do complain, then not their decision in the end. I also always consult with partners when I can and usually we can come to some idea. I think overthink this as well as many other things we do based on some vague rule.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

I would challenge the statement "If you don't have a count (visible or mental), you don't take time off. Period."

Ball is inbounded in back court and dribbled to FC, passed around, shot taken, etc before its picked up that clock never started.

Any of the officials will have 100% certainty that up to X seconds have passed. What that number is up to the officials to come to consensus on but you can be 100% certain that a number greater than 0 should be deducted. Why does it have to be an all or nothing scenario? Why do we leave ALL the time on OR only the exact amount remaining? Why can't "common sense and logic" be applied to "official information"?

It isn't all or nothing. It is definite or nothing. If you got to 8 in the backcourt, you can take off that 8. If then, in the FC, you got to 4 on the 5 count 3 times, you can take off 12 more. You can't take off for the gaps between the counts unless, for some reason, you were counting then too. You take off any seconds you know to have elapsed and don't fudge for the gaps where you don't know how long it was.

Why? That is how the rules say to handle it. If they want us to guess and make up something, they'd change the rule to remove definite knowledge and say just wing it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It isn't all or nothing. It is definite or nothing. If you got to 8 in the backcourt, you can take off that 8. If then, in the FC, you got to 4 on the 5 count 3 times, you can take off 12 more. You can't take off for the gaps between the counts unless, for some reason, you were counting then too. You take off any seconds you know to have elapsed and don't fudge for the gaps where you don't know how long it was.

Is anyone seriously suggesting this is what you do?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? That is how the rules say to handle it. If they want us to guess and make up something, they'd change the rule to remove definite knowledge and say just wing it.

Again, not sure anyone said, "wing it." But if you know the clock was stopped and you look up and the clock never moved, then you can take some time off the clock based on what you know should have gone off. Not an exact science but it would be reasonable to always take a second off in those situations. You might take off more if there were multiple dribbles or slow movement up the court. Either way, how is anyone going to really know but you? And you can ask for some information from table people and sometimes even a coach or two might have some insight, but in the end, this is your decision.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is anyone seriously suggesting this is what you do?



Again, not sure anyone said, "wing it." But if you know the clock was stopped and you look up and the clock never moved, then you can take some time off the clock based on what you know should have gone off. Not an exact science but it would be reasonable to always take a second off in those situations. You might take off more if there were multiple dribbles or slow movement up the court. Either way, how is anyone going to really know but you? And you can ask for some information from table people and sometimes even a coach or two might have some insight, but in the end, this is your decision.

Peace

MSU, again.

[JRutledge]

I do not recall that none of us have to answer to you or anyone on this board about this issue. Your interpretation of the rule is fine, where you live.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It isn't all or nothing. It is definite or nothing. That is how the rules say to handle it. If they want us to guess and make up something, they'd change the rule to remove definite knowledge and say just wing it.

Maybe that's what the rulebook states, but the NFHS interpretation states otherwise. It's definite, or nothing, or an educated guess in this specific circumstance:

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Also, what we do to correctly answer a written question on a rules exam may be little different than what we do, with our partner's input, in a real game situation.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... very few times have I had anyone complain that much about the time when we make an adjustment ... I also always consult with partners when I can and usually we can come to some idea.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... you can take some time off the clock based on what you know should have gone off. Not an exact science but it would be reasonable to always take a second off in those situations. You might take off more if there were multiple dribbles or slow movement up the court ... And you can ask for some information from table people and sometimes even a coach or two might have some insight ...

Sometimes we just have to take the bull by the horns and officiate the game according to intent and purpose to the best to our ability under the circumstance presented to us in a real game of basketball, as opposed to taking a written test. I know that it's slippery slope ("What other rules do you ignore BillyMac"), but sometimes we have to try to do what's seems fair to everybody. Note I that said sometimes. I'm not a big loose with the rules guy, but sometimes we just have to do what we have to do.

Hopefully the ruling slips under the radar and the phone doesn't ring the next morning. If it does, then we go the mea culpa route.

That being said, I'm using definite counts as much as reasonably possible, as advocated by Camron Rust ("Eight seconds of a ten second count. Four seconds of a five second count. Two seconds of a three second count. Plus the two seconds I counted in my head once I realized the clock hadn't started. We're running down sixteen seconds off the game clock. What? Twenty seconds? Sorry coach. That's all we can run off with definite knowledge. I'm not running down twenty seconds.").

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not recall that none of us have to answer to you or anyone on this board about this issue. Your interpretation of the rule is fine, where you live.

Peace

A double negative??? So you do have to answer to Camron?