Mechanics and clock situations (Video)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

A double negative??? So you do have to answer to Camron?

No. Keep it moving.

Peace

[just another ref]

In play one, if the C doesn't make a preliminary signal, is it okay if the lead changes his own call and reports the block? Either because of a word by the C, or simply because he realizes after the fact that this is the correct call?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... is it okay if the lead changes his own call ... simply because he realizes after the fact that this is the correct call?

Great question just another ref. I'd like to rephrase to be sure I understand the question.

Are you saying, in the simple situation (one whistle, one preliminary signal) of an official giving a preliminary signal (outside any other conflicting signals, or communications with partner), may an official change his mind at any time up to his reporting to the table from the reporting area?

Also, can the preliminary signal by one official be immediately changed to a different preliminary signal by the same official?

Let the games begin.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ODog

Play 1: Surprising that the C held his fist patiently for so long and then somehow still came down with the block signal, He looked like he was just going to leave it up there,

This was exactly my biggest take-away from the play. He did a great job of just staying with the fist and then went block anyway. What was he looking at and what was he waiting for??

[ilyazhito]

He was surprised by L making the call and not noticing that C had a fist. This made C think "oh crap, the L jumped the gun. Now I need to make my call." This made him do his lackluster block signal (incidentally, the call by C was correct, the defender did not have legal guarding position at the point of contact). Typically, in a double whistle situation, officials have to post the fist, see if another call has been made (if there is a fist or palm in the air), look at the other person making the call, and decide whose call to take. However, the L immediately went to a preliminary signal, making this resolution impossible.

I would be interested to hear the IHSA observer's take on that game, if there was one.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Typically, in a double whistle situation, officials have to post the fist, see if another call has been made (if there is a fist or palm in the air), look at the other person making the call, and decide whose call to take. However, the L immediately went to a preliminary signal, making this resolution impossible.

So he's looking right at the L, sees an obvious PC signal and punch, but doesn't see a fist first, so he signals block? I'm not buying that, personally.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

... in a double whistle situation, officials have to post the fist, see if another call has been made (if there is a fist or palm in the air), look at the other person making the call, and decide whose call to take.

Here on my little corner of Connecticut, where 95+% of our games are two person, when double whistles, and double fist signals, occur in a block/charge situation, in the absence of any preliminary signals, rule of thumb is that we automatically allow the lead to make the call. This may not be in any major mechanics manual, including IAABO, and I'm sure that there are better methods, but that's what we have been doing here for over thirty-five years, and it becomes second nature to us.

Of course, that assumes that both officials realize that two whistles sounded (think very loud gym with whistles sounding at the same exact time), and that one official (or both) doesn't quickly want to sell his call with an emphatic preliminary signal.

I haven't had a blarge in almost four decades of basketball officiating, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen in my next game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

He was surprised by L making the call and not noticing that C had a fist. This made C think "oh crap, the L jumped the gun. Now I need to make my call." This made him do his lackluster block signal (incidentally, the call by C was correct, the defender did not have legal guarding position at the point of contact). Typically, in a double whistle situation, officials have to post the fist, see if another call has been made (if there is a fist or palm in the air), look at the other person making the call, and decide whose call to take. However, the L immediately went to a preliminary signal, making this resolution impossible.

I would be interested to hear the IHSA observer's take on that game, if there was one.

That's supposition makes no sense.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

He was surprised by L making the call and not noticing that C had a fist. This made C think "oh crap, the L jumped the gun. Now I need to make my call." This made him do his lackluster block signal (incidentally, the call by C was correct, the defender did not have legal guarding position at the point of contact). Typically, in a double whistle situation, officials have to post the fist, see if another call has been made (if there is a fist or palm in the air), look at the other person making the call, and decide whose call to take. However, the L immediately went to a preliminary signal, making this resolution impossible.

I would be interested to hear the IHSA observer's take on that game, if there was one.

I will give you some insight in what an observer might be thinking (considering I am in that position on many levels). Don't have a blarge. It is not that complicated. Post your foul and see your partner. Expect a call from your partner in a dual coverage area.

Again, not that complicated.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Expect a call from your partner in a dual coverage area.

Bingo.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In play one, if the C doesn't make a preliminary signal, is it okay if the lead changes his own call and reports the block? Either because of a word by the C, or simply because he realizes after the fact that this is the correct call?

I guess anything is possible if it is all in your mind.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess anything is possible if it is all in your mind.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... can the preliminary signal by one official be immediately changed to a different preliminary signal by the same official?

I would like to hear some discussion regarding this situation. Repercussions from the coach? Getting it right? Allowed by rules? When does a call actually become a call?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would like to hear some discussion regarding this situation. Repercussions from the coach? Getting it right? Allowed by rules? When does a call actually become a call?

A call is when you blow your whistle and tell everyone what we are doing with signal or voice. I guess you can change that situation after the fact, but you will not have much credibility when you do that. So we can play games with what it is when we actually make a call, but that would be chaos. For one if I blow my whistle, then always have a conference after the fact, then you will have every call up for debate. For example, I call a foul on a shooter near the basket and I blow my whistle before the shot goes in the basket and the shot misses, can we debate that call? Sure you could, but then what if we determine the call was not proper and no foul should have been called? Do we now go back to the point we blew the whistle and say, "No that does not count"?

This is not football where the play eventually ends and then the play can be discussed after the fact. Because no such flag ever kills the play. In basketball we are often killing the play with our whistle. And if we can debate the foul after the fact and the play would have been live, either we are going to have to change the rules to allow that to be a regular thing or we will be using the AP arrow often in games because we can debate what is the call. Because could I make a every call up for some level of discussion when the ball is clearly live.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A call is when you blow your whistle and tell everyone what we are doing with signal or voice. I guess you can change that situation after the fact, but you will not have much credibility when you do that.

Agree.

Devil's Advocate: "Coach. My preliminary signal was premature. I jumped the gun. I should have waited for the play to develop. I called the block because I thought the play was going one way, but a split second after my preliminary signal I gave it a second thought and decided that it was definitely a player control foul. Would you rather me stick to my mistake, or would you rather me get it right?"

I'm not disagreeing with JRutledge, but is there ever a time when we're allowed to change our call (no complications, alone, by ourself, with no conference, no input from our partner, no conflicting signals, etc.).

Of course, we should all heed the advice of Confucius: "Have a patient whistle."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Official: "Coach. Would you rather me stick to my mistake, or would you rather me get it right?"

Coach: "I'd rather that you get it right the first time."