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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 03, 2018, 10:09am
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Is this a block?

This play stuck in my mind from the Rockets game last night. This play is becoming more and more common even at lower levels. What did the defender do wrong? This is a difficult play to officiate and we will see more of these situations in the future:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-D68vkwd0I
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 10:32am
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That should be a PC foul, imo. Harden lunges backwards into Ingles. If this were two players side by side it would be the same initiating of contact but would properly ruled a PC foul.

It gets trickier when the offensive player merely stops and is then run into by a defender.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 10:53am
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This is a trainwreck. It didn't seem that Ingles did anything wrong. I would agree with a player control foul, because Harden is not giving Ingles any space to do anything. AFAIK, if any illegal contact happens between a dribbled and a defender, the dribbler is responsible for the contact, and space must be given for a player behind another player to stop or avoid contact, at least on screening plays. Harden should have known better than to stop dribbling and get run over from behind, so I would be giving him a PC foul. I would then have to eat $#!t from the Rockets' bench following that call .
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 12:28pm
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Putting this in the context of officiating a high school or other youth level game and using those rule sets and standards. Here are your choices as I see them:

A) Do nothing and watch everyone lose their mind. Game could start to get very chippy and crowd/benches, very vocal and emotional.

B) Call the block. Defensive player and coach are annoyed but likely live with the reality of gotcha moment by O.

C) Call the PCF for illegal screen. Watch everyone in the gym get confused, O player and bench get irate and be ready for a call from your assignor for making a call I personally have never seen made on the that type of play. Video and the rule book maybe on your side though so know your assignor.

D) Call an unsportsmanlike foul for rough play making unnecessary contact. Watch O player and bench get irate. Feild a call from your assignor asking why you are suddenly a space cowboy and trying to put his/her butt in a sling and not just managing the game.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 01:16pm
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It's definitely not a block. If on the defense, it would be a push.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 01:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is a trainwreck. It didn't seem that Ingles did anything wrong. I would agree with a player control foul, because Harden is not giving Ingles any space to do anything. AFAIK, if any illegal contact happens between a dribbled and a defender, the dribbler is responsible for the contact, and space must be given for a player behind another player to stop or avoid contact, at least on screening plays. Harden should have known better than to stop dribbling and get run over from behind, so I would be giving him a PC foul. I would then have to eat $#!t from the Rockets' bench following that call .
Must be a typo or something because that isn't even close to being true.

Doesn't apply when the screener and trailing player are moving in the same path and direction. -- edit: true, but not applicable.

(Both with the caveat that I didn't watch the video and I don't know NBA rules -- the second comment, especially, is based on NCAA and (I think) FED.)

Edit: Now I've seen the video. It was a point raised last season in NCAAW (I forget whether it was really a POE or not) about BHDs setting illegal screens (usually a non-dribbler pivoting onto the screen). I agree that we will see more of it and that it should be a foul on the offense.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Thu May 03, 2018 at 01:42pm.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 01:42pm
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in this case I think it should be a PC on Harden. He deliberately made contact when it could have been avoided. But...of course players do that all the time to get the block call when they see the defender is not in position. Still PC for me

imagine if Harden did not see Ingles and it was a clear accident. No call I presume. Both coaches would be yelling for a foul but then they would come to their senses and everything would be merry, filled with jolly jowels and busty bees.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 02:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
It's definitely not a block. If on the defense, it would be a push.
Ha, correct poor wording but interested in the situation. I actually had this happen about a week ago around half court when I was the trail. Fortunately my partner came from the end line as the lead out to call a block. We have already discussed the AAU games and atmosphere so I subjected myself to this.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Must be a typo or something because that isn't even close to being true.

Doesn't apply when the screener and trailing player are moving in the same path and direction. -- edit: true, but not applicable.

(Both with the caveat that I didn't watch the video and I don't know NBA rules -- the second comment, especially, is based on NCAA and (I think) FED.)

Edit: Now I've seen the video. It was a point raised last season in NCAAW (I forget whether it was really a POE or not) about BHDs setting illegal screens (usually a non-dribbler pivoting onto the screen). I agree that we will see more of it and that it should be a foul on the offense.
OK. If the defender is in LGP (or LGP does not apply, as it would not in this play), or the dribbler is trying to squeeze between defender and sideline, or two defenders, the dribbler is responsible for avoiding illegal contact. In this situation, LGP does not apply, because the defender is behind the dribbler, and trying to return to his end of the court. Because of Harden's hard stop, contact occurs. Ingles could not have altered his path with sufficient time to avoid contact, because both he and Harden were traveling in the same direction with (approximately) the same speed, and would not have made contact if Harden did not stop. Because Harden was (indirectly) responsible for the contact, he should be called for a player control foul, no matter how unpopular the call might be.
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 02:56pm
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NFHS 2016-17 casebook pg 90, 10.7.7 comment:

...Screening principles apply to the dribbler who attempts to cut off an opponent who is approaching in a different path from the rear. In this case the dribbler must allow such opponent a maximum of two steps or an opportunity to stop or avoid contact..."
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Putting this in the context of officiating a high school or other youth level game and using those rule sets and standards. Here are your choices as I see them:

D) Call an unsportsmanlike foul for rough play making unnecessary contact. Watch O player and bench get irate. Feild a call from your assignor asking why you are suddenly a space cowboy and trying to put his/her butt in a sling and not just managing the game.
Uh, if you're putting this in the context of a high school or youth game played under NFHS rules, how can you call something that only exists in FIBA and NCAAW?
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 04:56pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Uh, if you're putting this in the context of a high school or youth game played under NFHS rules, how can you call something that only exists in FIBA and NCAAW?
BTW, Pantherdreams is from Canada, where they play by FIBA rules. The corresponding NFHS term would be "Intentional Foul", but the principles behind the choice would remain the same.

I would elect "C", to call a player control foul.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Thu May 03, 2018 at 04:57pm. Reason: clarification
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Old Thu May 03, 2018, 09:30pm
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Whether the game is played under NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, or FIBA, this is a Blocking Foul by the Ball Handler.

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Old Fri May 04, 2018, 09:58am
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Whether the game is played under NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, or FIBA, this is a Blocking Foul by the Ball Handler.

MTD, Sr.
Your list includes pretty much everything except....... NBA. I will admit that my NBA rules knowledge is very limited but it just feels so difficult to punish the defender here. This is one of many examples of this type of play throughout the season in the NBA. From what I have seen they were all called the same way, not sure what they means in terms of rules or reviews but just an observation.
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Old Fri May 04, 2018, 03:23pm
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The NBA Referee Association (NBRA) said publicly that it should have been an offensive foul.
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