AAU Tournaments and peer-pressure to move the games along...

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Pay more for officials, and use 3-man crews. 3-man crews are better for off-ball coverage, game management (preventing the dumb stuff), and seeing illegal action than 2-man crews are. This would be especially useful for AAU ball.

OK young fellow.......time to calm down. This is AAU for and nobody cares about three man. The directors only care about entry fees and the last game starting on time. There is no organized ball, with the exception of EYBL and Adidas Gauntlet. Whoever gets the rebound, dribbles up court and jacks up a bad three. Coaches are the same people screaming in the stands in the winter (parents )...Three man, four man it won't change the culture.

I worked an event this weekend 16 and 17 and my partner only works rec ball. Every blocked shot he called a foul for "body"......You can try to be a purist but the reality is if your willing to work be ready for all the crap that comes with it...

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

OK young fellow.......time to calm down. This is AAU for and nobody cares about three man. The directors only care about entry fees and the last game starting on time. There is no organized ball, with the exception of EYBL and Adidas Gauntlet. Whoever gets the rebound, dribbles up court and jacks up a bad three. Coaches are the same people screaming in the stands in the winter (parents )...Three man, four man it won't change the culture.

I worked an event this weekend 16 and 17 and my partner only works rec ball. Every blocked shot he called a foul for "body"......You can try to be a purist but the reality is if your willing to work be ready for all the crap that comes with it...

I thought that AAU was actually about basketball, and officials actually cared... In that case my comments would have been relevant, because 3 man = a cleaner, safer game, because more fouls can be seen and called.

However, now I realize that AAU basketball (with the exception of some leagues, is a mix between a zoo and a circus, with very little resemblance to actual basketball. If they are not willing to provide proper crews, at least give some training to AAU officials, to avoid situations like the one with your partner. Some officials there are entertaining, others are embarrassing.

I'll stay out of this zoo, and maybe Brent and other posters will as well.

[deecee]

AAU is about money. From the organizers to the assignors. It's how much they can pack in their pockets while actually doing as little as possible. The coaches and parents are out of control. I was one of the very few that took 0 crap. I have tossed coaches, parents, players and declared forfeits. It's like the wild west, and if you give an inch it only gets worse very fast.

There are a few properly run ones but it's rare.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I thought that AAU was actually about basketball, and officials actually cared.

DEFINITELY not. I always try to explain it to people like this: If "real basketball" (say, a legitimate boys varsity game) is a 10 in terms of site supervision, game administration, proper infrastructure, rules enforcement, sportsmanship expectations, officiating accountability, etc., AAU basketball is AT BEST a 5.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

However, now I realize that AAU basketball is a mix between a zoo and a circus, with very little resemblance to actual basketball.

Atta boy ... exactly!

But, like another poster said, if you go in with the proper mindset, you CAN often get something out of it as an official, like seeing more plays, encountering more scenarios, applying new techniques and staying in shape, to name a few.

[SC Official]

If you haven't learned this already, you will quickly find out that there will ALWAYS be officials (and even camp clinicians) willing to sell their souls to these tournament organizers.

The cheap buck is more important to lots of officials than doing what's right for the game of basketball. Because when you call a game the way it's supposed to be called, many times that will just upset the organizers and the paying teams. It is what it is.

The simple answer is to not do these games because you're not going to be a trailblazer. Of course, that's easier to say if you don't need the money or you're not a less experienced official trying to work on things.

[HokiePaul]

I've never had an issue with these types of things. And I disagree that there is one way that is the "right for the game of basketball" as someone suggested.

High school games follow NFHS rules and (at least in my area) you have an assignor and rules interpreter who define an approach that they want. Don't try and take your HS approach and apply it to a AAU game or an adult rec league or a 5th grade CYO game -- or a college game for that matter.

My goal in an AAU type game is consistency of calls. We may not adhere to the strict NFHS points of emphasis on hand checking, for example, but that's fine because its not an NFHS game where I'm expected to call things a certain way.

I also try to find some value in these types of games. I've found that working adult rec games or AAU games, for example, has helped me with having a patient whistle, watching plays start, develop, and finish, and with evaluating advantage/disadvantage.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I've never had an issue with these types of things. And I disagree that there is one way that is the "right for the game of basketball" as someone suggested.

High school games follow NFHS rules and (at least in my area) you have an assignor and rules interpreter who define an approach that they want. Don't try and take your HS approach and apply it to a AAU game or an adult rec league or a 5th grade CYO game -- or a college game for that matter.

My goal in an AAU type game is consistency of calls. We may not adhere to the strict NFHS points of emphasis on hand checking, for example, but that's fine because its not an NFHS game where I'm expected to call things a certain way.

I also try to find some value in these types of games. I've found that working adult rec games or AAU games, for example, has helped me with having a patient whistle, watching plays start, develop, and finish, and with evaluating advantage/disadvantage.

OK, my question is simple. Then what standards would you use if you say you do not use strict NFHS interpretations? The NCAA has the same exact interpretations as the NF (Guess where the NF got their standard from?) Even the NBA has similar philosophies when it comes to plays on the perimeter, the post is just a little different for a lot of reasons.

Peace

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, my question is simple. Then what standards would you use if you say you do not use strict NFHS interpretations? The NCAA has the same exact interpretations as the NF (Guess where the NF got their standard from?) Even the NBA has similar philosophies when it comes to plays on the perimeter, the post is just a little different for a lot of reasons.

Peace

Can you even define "strict interpretations" on judgement calls? There are absolutes in rules and then there are rules that require judgement. You can't tell me that you judge illegal contact the same way for different levels of play. The non-HS leagues do many things different -- running clocks, different # of timeouts, no color restrictions on undershirts, etc. If the assignor for an AAU league makes it clear that they want to keep the games moving, I have no issue taking that into consideration just as I would if the assignor who tells us not to strictly enforce NFHS uniform rules that aren't safety related.

My whole point was that I personally don't see adapting my playcalling to the a non-HS environment as a big deal. Someone who tells me that they don't adapt their decision making to the level of play and type of game is either lying or not a good referee.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Can you even define "strict interpretations" on judgement calls? There are absolutes in rules and then there are rules that require judgement.

10-1-4 in college is the same rule of 10-6-12 in NF.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

You can't tell me that you judge illegal contact the same way for different levels of play. The non-HS leagues do many things different -- running clocks, different # of timeouts, no color restrictions on undershirts, etc.

I absolutely call the game the same way. I was not talking about obvious rules differences like if the 3 point line in college is different than high school that I would use that line in high school. Or I would call a block-charge call the same as if there is an RA in a high school game. But when the contact rules are the same, I would call it exactly the same way. If the action is not a foul in a college game, it is not a foul in a high school game. But many uniform rules in college and NF are practically the same and will be strictly enforced. That is often not even considered in games under AAU. Did a tournament in another state and no one was going around telling kids to roll up their shorts or take off those undershirts that did not match the jersey. Heck there were even officials that allowed taped ears because the kid had on earrings.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

If the assignor for an AAU league makes it clear that they want to keep the games moving, I have no issue taking that into consideration just as I would if the assignor who tells us not to strictly enforce NFHS uniform rules that aren't safety related.

Well if there are rules for fouls, I am calling them. Because if we don't, then I am not doing my job and I would rather call the foul that is supported by rule than pass on something. The most games I work in AAU are associated with a camp and no where are we told to not call something because it is AAU or we are being evaluated for higher than high school.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

My whole point was that I personally don't see adapting my playcalling to the a non-HS environment as a big deal. Someone who tells me that they don't adapt their decision making to the level of play and type of game is either lying or not a good referee.

Well I see basketball as basketball. It is the same basic game from grammar school to college and even pros. The difference is the ability of the players that can handle marginal contact differently. But if the illegal contact puts a player at a disadvantage, then it is a foul regardless of who is playing. And when I go to camps were are asked to call the game the same that I would if I was working a high school game even though the camp is for college basketball. If you are asking me to change something, then you do not understand the game IMO.

Peace

[Multiple Sports]

Originally Posted by BrentD2222

I hate doing some AAU tournaments because I feel like the organizers pressure the refs to only keep the games moving. IMHO I've seen games end up taking longer and being far more out of control due to unruly behavior due to so many no calls. They end up becoming rock fights and getting very messy down the stretch.

I've been ashamed of some of the games I've been part of due to partners unwillingness to blow their wistle. I hear comments like "I'm not calling shit, I just want to go home, this is my last game".

I attended my son's game this past weekend. While I was not officiating many of the parents know I am an official, so I was forced to field a lot of questions which I either correctly defend the on court officials or explain how angles and views of what happens are a lot different on the court. The game was a shit show. One ref was very solid. The other refused to blow his wistle and also refused to switch ends on any calls. Keep in mind my son's team won the game so this isn't sour grapes. It was concern for player safety and enjoyment of the game. With the exception of one player on the other team who very loudly enjoyed the shit show taunting fans, players, the coach etc. I don't think anyone coaches, fans, players enjoyed that game (except for that douche bag player).

What if anything should be done when you observe an official clearly not caring and putting players at jepordy. He no-called some of the most insane two hand shoves. Trips, two hand shoves... flagrent fouls that would be ejections or min. techs at any scholastic game. Once the player in question swiped at the testicles of another player knocking to his knees. The ref that was in question let out a small chuckle, his only response.

The parents all said we do not yell at the refs out of respect for you knowing you are an official, but when they are not even trying how can we stand for that. I didn't know what to say.

PS - The solid official started the game alone for the first 5 minutes, he was young, but solid. The older guy finally showed up and clearly wanted to go home early was in the young offials ear influencing him (peer-pressure) to lay off his whistle.

It for sure solidified my unwant to officiate AAU tournaments. Especially those that are not run by organizers that care about anything other then the revenue.

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Brent,

Sit by yourself. This is no difference than a high school umpire going to his kids 10U game and people getting on the ump for a bad zone. Your there as a dad. Support your son. That is what is important.

I did an event this weekend where a guy who played for Lefty Driesell at University of Maryland was watching his son ( 6"6") 8th grade. He detests this crap so much he sits alone. Dude was recruited by Terry Holland, Dean Smith and Lefty. He gets it, it is a neccessary evil. Not worth it to have your son's two guard dad, who is an IT guy to be asking you for an explanation when a kid fumbles the ball why a travel isn't called.....

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

Brent,

Sit by yourself. This is no difference than a high school umpire going to his kids 10U game and people getting on the ump for a bad zone. Your there as a dad. Support your son. That is what is important.

I did an event this weekend where a guy who played for Lefty Driesell at University of Maryland was watching his son ( 6"6") 8th grade. He detests this crap so much he sits alone. Dude was recruited by Terry Holland, Dean Smith and Lefty. He gets it, it is a neccessary evil. Not worth it to have your son's two guard dad, who is an IT guy to be asking you for an explanation when a kid fumbles the ball why a travel isn't called.....

Flashback!!

Lefty, Dean, Terry Holland?

Are you sure he wasn't supporting his GRANDSON?