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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2018, 03:12pm
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In addition to a bunch of texts I received from friends about this call my mother, who doesn't even watch much basketball, called me to ask me what I thought about the call since she and my father disagreed. I ended up explaining LGP to my dad since his reasoning was the defender wasnt "completely set."

Watching live and on every replay I've seen since, this was an EASY PC IMO. We talk sometimes in pre-games about not making defenders "be perfect." This was a good example of that. This play is a PC 10 times out of 10 in my book and not particularly close at all.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2018, 06:18pm
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Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
In addition to a bunch of texts I received from friends about this call my mother, who doesn't even watch much basketball, called me to ask me what I thought about the call since she and my father disagreed. I ended up explaining LGP to my dad since his reasoning was the defender wasnt "completely set."

Watching live and on every replay I've seen since, this was an EASY PC IMO. We talk sometimes in pre-games about not making defenders "be perfect." This was a good example of that. This play is a PC 10 times out of 10 in my book and not particularly close at all.
this talk about establishing LGP and then moving, any movement he made after establishing LGP was with Newman in the air, so illegal. My issue is we are talking an inch or 2. I think it was a charge, and in any event there was more wrong calls in the game on balance in Duke's favor anyway, so it sure didn't cost Duke the game.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2018, 06:38pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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"any movement he made after establishing LGP was with Newman in the air...."

I had the lateral movement before Newman became airborne.

I'm fascinated by the fact that, in this forum generally, we view plays multiple times, in slow motion, forwards and backwards--and we can't even agree on the objective "facts" of what we're seeing.

Not a criticism of anyone, just an observation.

Last edited by LRZ; Sat Mar 31, 2018 at 12:15pm.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 30, 2018, 08:35pm
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Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
this talk about establishing LGP and then moving, any movement he made after establishing LGP was with Newman in the air, so illegal. My issue is we are talking an inch or 2. I think it was a charge, and in any event there was more wrong calls in the game on balance in Duke's favor anyway, so it sure didn't cost Duke the game.
Are you sure about that? Show me the rule that says that.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 05:37am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Are you sure about that? Show me the rule that says that.
Common sense if not literal.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 09:21am
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Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Common sense if not literal.
wow
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 10:21am
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
wow
Are you guys saying that if you establish legal guarding position, the driver jumps in the air, you can then slide underneath him? Good luck with that. You all are just playin' lol. There is no question anywhere on this one. You two just aren't thinking it through. If moving laterally while the driver is in the air to stay in front of him after he jumps is legal, then a lot of slides underneath a player become charges. So why the wow?

Any opinions on the blocked shot by DeSouza in the 2nd half? Looks like he got it as it got to the board, no bounce off it. I'd say on that call, it's not goal tending if the issue is the backboard, unless you see it come off the board and then touched. Tie goes to the blocker in other words.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 10:47am
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Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Common sense if not literal.
Common sense would result in the opposite conclusion that you have made.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 10:52am
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Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Are you guys saying that if you establish legal guarding position, the driver jumps in the air, you can then slide underneath him? Good luck with that. You all are just playin' lol. There is no question anywhere on this one. You two just aren't thinking it through. If moving laterally while the driver is in the air to stay in front of him after he jumps is legal, then a lot of slides underneath a player become charges. So why the wow?
No. That is not what we're saying. No one is saying the player moving laterally is doing so to "stay" in front of the opponent.

A player that "is" in front of the opponent who moves laterally doesn't lose LGP. The requirement is that the defender be in the path before the shooter leaves the floor. If you were to freeze the defender at that moment (when the shooter leaves the floor) and they are "in the path", then a subsequent lateral shift is irrelevant. They already met the requirements of LGP.

If at that frozen moment, the defender is NOT in the path of the shooter, then lateral movement to put them in the path mean they didn't have LGP when the shooter jumped.

The rule just does not require the defender to be set in stone before the shooter jumps. That type of thinking is what causes many officials to get block/charge plays wrong.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The rule just does not require the defender to be set in stone before the shooter jumps. That type of thinking is what causes many officials to get block/charge plays wrong.
NFHS: A defender may turn away, or duck, to absorb contact, provided the defender has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court, and facing the opponent.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
No. That is not what we're saying. No one is saying the player moving laterally is doing so to "stay" in front of the opponent.

A player that "is" in front of the opponent who moves laterally doesn't lose LGP. The requirement is that the defender be in the path before the shooter leaves the floor. If you were to freeze the defender at that moment (when the shooter leaves the floor) and they are "in the path", then a subsequent lateral shift is irrelevant. They already met the requirements of LGP.

If at that frozen moment, the defender is NOT in the path of the shooter, then lateral movement to put them in the path mean they didn't have LGP when the shooter jumped.

The rule just does not require the defender to be set in stone before the shooter jumps. That type of thinking is what causes many officials to get block/charge plays wrong.
I don't agree, to establish legal guarding position, "The guard’s torso shall face the opponent". Here is an example for you, would you say that a defender running along at the side of a dribbler in transition has 'legal guarding position'? I think he does...if the dribbler changes his path and moves into the defenders path, initiating the collision, it's a charge, despite the fact that the defender was not 'in the path' of the dribbler when establishing legal guarding position. Nowhere does the book say that a defender has to be 'in the path' of a moving dribbler to have legal guarding position, he must be 'facing' him, which is different. I understand the ability to maintain LGP by moving obliquely with the dribbler.

Another example more to your description, let's say a high flyer is coming straight at a guy set up for a charge in the paint, has clearly established LGP. Let's say springy on his last plant and jump changes direction to fly at a 20 degree angle to avoid the LGP. The defender cannot then move underneath the flyer while he is in the air and take a charge. I agree that this is an area that is misapplied quite a bit. An example of a guy that was in legal guarding position was Svi on Trent late in this game, Svi alongside moving with him, and Trent on his shot changing direction into Svi, 100% responsible for the collision, got an and 1. That should have been nothing or a charge.

Most important point here is that a defender doesn't have to be 'in the path' of a dribbler to establish LGP, at all. If you think about that, it's obvious. Consider a defender out top defending the point who is dribbling side to side, and defender is staying between him and the bucket, in LGP, but not 'in the path' of the dribbler. If the dribbler then changed direction and moved into the obliquely moving defender, it's on the dribbler.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I don't agree, to establish legal guarding position, "The guard’s torso shall face the opponent".
You can disagree, but you quoted the rule as only one of the things to establish LGP.

I did not read anything else after this statement because it is irrelevant.

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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I don't agree, to establish legal guarding position, "The guard’s torso shall face the opponent". Here is an example for you, would you say that a defender running along at the side of a dribbler in transition has 'legal guarding position'? I think he does...if the dribbler changes his path and moves into the defenders path, initiating the collision, it's a charge, despite the fact that the defender was not 'in the path' of the dribbler when establishing legal guarding position. Nowhere does the book say that a defender has to be 'in the path' of a moving dribbler to have legal guarding position, he must be 'facing' him, which is different. I understand the ability to maintain LGP by moving obliquely with the dribbler.
The basic definition of guarding says otherwise.

The rule....
Quote:
SECTION 23 GUARDING ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.
It then goes on to define what further it takes to obtain and maintain LGP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
Another example more to your description, let's say a high flyer is coming straight at a guy set up for a charge in the paint, has clearly established LGP. Let's say springy on his last plant and jump changes direction to fly at a 20 degree angle to avoid the LGP. The defender cannot then move underneath the flyer while he is in the air and take a charge.
Correct....that defender was no longer in the path when the shooter jumped to the side and became airborne. The defender would then have to move to get into the path....and it is too late for that. But that is not the same as saying the defender can't move if the shooter jumps at the defender already in the path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post

.....

Most important point here is that a defender doesn't have to be 'in the path' of a dribbler to establish LGP, at all.
Actually, you're 100% wrong on that...see the above rule citation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post

If you think about that, it's obvious. Consider a defender out top defending the point who is dribbling side to side, and defender is staying between him and the bucket, in LGP, but not 'in the path' of the dribbler. If the dribbler then changed direction and moved into the obliquely moving defender, it's on the dribbler.
The real question is what is the definition of "path".
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
this talk about establishing LGP and then moving, any movement he made after establishing LGP was with Newman in the air, so illegal. My issue is we are talking an inch or 2. I think it was a charge, and in any event there was more wrong calls in the game on balance in Duke's favor anyway, so it sure didn't cost Duke the game.
With regard to defensive movement after the offense went airborne, I think your statement here is somewhat contradictory even though I understand and mostly agree with what you are saying.

Its leading to what I hope will be a good discussion that you and Cameron have begun in breaking LGP down further.

With regard to the "balance of calls being in Duke's favor" I'll just note that its very interesting to me as one of my non officiating friends who I often have discussions with about officiating was texting me during the game that basically "refs just have it in them to cheat for Duke" b/c he felt very strongly that the balance of calls was going Duke's way all game. Full disclosure I am a life long Duke "hater" as a fan. And as a Maryland alum, who was on campus watching a notoriously and questionably officiated 2nd half of the 2001 semi-final, I will probably always have some personal feeling about Duke "getting calls." But I really observe the game as an official now so I don't get caught up in that as much as just trying to judge plays. And again, this particularly play, in my mind is a no brainer PC.

That said, its also interesting that some here have basically suggested that Ayers may have taken into consideration that Duke did seem to be getting the balance of the calls in going with a block here on what he saw as a close play. Obviously speculation but if so, then my belief is that he has earned that right. I just disagree that it was close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
.
I'm fascinated by the fact that, in this forum generally, we view plays multiple times, in slow motion, forwards and backwards--and we can't even agree on the objectives "facts" of what we're seeing.

Not a criticism of anyone, just an observation.
During a state final this year, I was in the arena talking to a recently retired official who I worked my first state final with a few years ago and is still involved as a state observer. I made a comment something to the effect of, "its a lot easier getting all of the calls correct from the stands" and their response was, "I still don't get em right."

Similar to your observation, I came away thinking about how even on replay there can be disagreement amongst good, experienced, and knowledgeable officials. Just shows how difficult it can be to officiate this game especially with athletic, skilled, and physically advanced players moving in a confined space.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 12:41pm
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The whole "defender moved slightly to his left" statement may seem like a hair split, but B/C plays in the air have to be handled differently than ones that happen along the floor.

John Adams himself released that "quiz" a number of years ago that showed officials getting all kinds of B/C calls wrong, and the big takeaway seemed to be that with plays on the floor, the only thing that matters is who initiates the contact - does the dribbler go into the defender, or does the defender go into the dribbler. With plays in the air, the defender gets ZERO latitude - he has to be at the spot before the shooter becomes airborne, and cannot move AT ALL except turning in place to absorb contact.

Gotta admit, at the time, I thought Ayers blew the call - but then saw the replay and said "geez, the guy moved a bit to the left...can't do that".
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