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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 09:04pm
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So the final confirmed answer to my original question that turned into several other questions is that a Moving/Illegal Screen without contact can never be called just a VIOLATION....YES?
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 09:29pm
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Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So the final confirmed answer to my original question that turned into several other questions is that a Moving/Illegal Screen without contact can never be called just a VIOLATION....YES?


Yes, because not matter how poorly a Screen is set, if there is no contact between the Screener and the Screened, no infraction of the Rules has occurred.

MTD, Sr.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Sat Feb 10, 2018 at 09:48pm. Reason: Corrected spelling and grammar.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 09:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So the final confirmed answer to my original question that turned into several other questions is that a Moving/Illegal Screen without contact can never be called just a VIOLATION....YES?
Is English your second language? Just asking, because this question has been asked and answered several times in this thread.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 10:55pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What's The Matter With Kids Today?
What's wrong with coaches today? Back in the mid-twentieth century, we were taught to get there a little early, get set, and don't over extend any body part. I guess that coaches today don't teach that anymore. Also, kids today aren't taught how to use screens properly. We were taught to get as close to the screener as possible, usually shoulder to shoulder, not leaving any room for a defender to squeeze in. Players today don't get as close to the screener, forcing the screener to move, or to overextend a body part, in order to screen off the defender.
Those &$#@& kids on your lawn? Get a grip. In *every* era, players push boundaries. Why do kids set sloppy screens and why does the ball handeler go to soon? Because it doesn’t get called! Why in the world should coaches teach players to do it “right” when it is more effective to do it “Wrong”and refs don’t call it? At least in games I watch, refs let players get away with a lot. Smart players look for the boundaries and do everything they can get away with. Don’t blame coaches on this one.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 12:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So if an offensive player moves late in front of a defensive player (to set a pick) and makes that defensive player stop or go around him without contact then there's no call?
If I run past you, is that a foul?
If I run around you, is that a foul?
If I run near you and decide to stop running, is that a foul?

Scary ...

If you expect it to be a violation, what would the "violation" be: Moving on the court without contacting anyone?
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 01:19am
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Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Those &$#@& kids on your lawn? Get a grip. In *every* era, players push boundaries. Why do kids set sloppy screens and why does the ball handeler go to soon? Because it doesn’t get called! Why in the world should coaches teach players to do it “right” when it is more effective to do it “Wrong”and refs don’t call it? At least in games I watch, refs let players get away with a lot. Smart players look for the boundaries and do everything they can get away with. Don’t blame coaches on this one.

I graduated from H.S. in 1969 and my H.S. basketball coach was also an OhioHSAA registered basketball official. Whenever he was asked why he was a basketball official, his reply was: "How can you teach someone to play the game if you do not know the rules." To elaborate on that, my coach taught Guarding and Screening right out of the Rules Book. If one were to have observed our practice one would have thought he/she were watching a basketball officiating camp. Before I could graduated from H.S. I could quote "chapter and verse" of the Guarding and Screening rules. That is why I can say with absolute certainty that the Guarding and Screening rules have not changed in over 50 years, not to mention that I started officiating in 1971 and the oldest rules book in my library is the 1963-64 season.

MTD, Sr.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 10:09am
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Fouls (Rule 10), Violations (Rule 9) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So the final confirmed answer to my original question that turned into several other questions is that a Moving/Illegal Screen without contact can never be called just a VIOLATION....YES?
When coaches, fans, etc., yell, "Moving screen" (a phrase never used by officials), they usually want a foul (not a violation) called, even though there may not be illegal contact. All fouls, with the exception of technical fouls, involve illegal contact.

Violations are noncontact illegalities: traveling, illegal dribble, out of bounds, three seconds, backcourt, ten seconds, five seconds, basketball interference, goaltending, free throw violations, etc.

What you should probably be asking is can a moving screen without contact ever be called a foul? Or, maybe you really are asking if a moving screen without contact can ever be called a violation?

No, and no.

Personal fouls, like an illegal screen, always involve illegal contact (an illegal screen is often a blocking foul, and a team control foul (no free throws)).

And a moving screen, with or without contact, illegal, or otherwise, can never be called a violation, it's not even mentioned in Rule 9 VIOLATIONS (see partial list of noncontact illegalities above, travel, etc.).

Screen with legal contact (even with severe legal contact)? Nothing.

Screen with illegal contact? Foul.

Screen with no contact? Nothing.


A violation never even comes into the picture, it's a non sequitur.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 11, 2018 at 01:00pm.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
When coaches, fans, etc., yell, "Moving screen" (a phrase never used by officials), they usually want a foul (not a violation) called, even though there may not be illegal contact. All fouls, with the exception of technical fouls, involve illegal contact.

Violations are noncontact illegalities: traveling, illegal dribble, out of bounds, three seconds, backcourt, ten seconds, five seconds, basketball interference, goaltending, free throw violations, etc.

What you should probably be asking is can a moving screen without contact ever be called a foul? Or, maybe you really are asking if a moving screen without contact can ever be called a violation?

No, and no.

Personal fouls, like an illegal screen, always involve illegal contact (an illegal screen is often a blocking foul, and a team control foul (no free throws)).

And a moving screen, with or without contact, illegal, or otherwise, can never be called a violation, it's not even mentioned in Rule 9 VIOLATIONS (see partial list of noncontact illegalities above, travel, etc.).

Screen with legal contact (even with severe legal contact)? Nothing.

Screen with illegal contact? Foul.

Screen with no contact? Nothing.


A violation never even comes into the picture, it's a non sequitur.
BillyMac:

Valiant effort and clearly stated but I think your efforts are for naught. OP either can't or won't be able to fathom plain English, either for lack of language aptitude or pure stubbornness. My sense is that both apply.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 02:32pm
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Rational, Logical, Sequential, Examples, All The Bells And Whistles ...

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Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
BillyMac: Valiant effort and clearly stated but I think your efforts are for naught. OP either can't or won't be able to fathom plain English, either for lack of language aptitude or pure stubbornness. My sense is that both apply.
I pulled my "Middle School Teacher" hat out of retirement, and pretended that I was writing a lesson plan for my students.

Did I use the phrase non sequitur properly? I don't think that I've ever used in its written form before today.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 11, 2018 at 03:58pm.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 02:42pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"it's writen form....
Billy, you corrected one typo, but left two other errors. C+.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I pulled my "Middle School Teacher" hat out of retirement, and pretended that I was writing a lesson plan for my students.

Did I use the phrase non sequitur properly? I don't think that I've ever used in it's writen form before today.
If you truly aspire for the status of hipster, you must employ the current trendy term "ELI5".

Translated as 'explain like I'm five' years old.

Non sequitur is apropos.

Miss McGillicuddy would mark you down for misspelling the past participle of 'to write', and have you march to the blackboard to write it at least 100 times, in your best cursive.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 04:03pm
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My Manners Need Improving ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Miss McGillicuddy would mark you down for misspelling the past participle of 'to write', and have you march to the blackboard to write it at least 100 times, in your best cursive.
Been there. Done that. When "after school" (now it's called detention) for misbehavior, Mr. MacNeck, my fifth grade teacher, would have us write, "My Manners Need Improving.", on the blackboard as many times as he saw necessary.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 11, 2018 at 11:21pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 05:30pm
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Whenever a HC wants a Foul for a poorly set "moving screen" in which there was no contact I always tell him/her that this is not soccer where the penalty for Obstruction is an Indirect Freekick.

MTD, Sr.
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Toledo, Ohio
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 10:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Miss McGillicuddy
Almost thought we had a Honeymooners reference there!
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 11:14pm
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Miss McGillicuddy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Miss McGillicuddy ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Almost thought we had a Honeymooners reference there!
Our Gang (also known as The Little Rascals).

The Gang's teacher before Miss Crabtree.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 11, 2018 at 11:19pm.
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