The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 04, 2004, 12:52am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,595
I've always found it interesting to watch players at the younger levels as they set screens and the defenders as they deal with the screen. Yes, some will practically tackle the defender as he passes. "How could it be a foul on me? My team has the ball!" But other times the defender will oblige and run in a big wide arc to avoid the screener, and naturally, sometimes the screener will follow and almost herd the defender right off the court. This, of course, leads to yells from the "knowledgeable" coaches and parents: "Moving screen! He can't do that!" I have explained this several times this year that, yes, he can do that, as long as there is no contact. This gave me an idea.
(Yes, I do get ideas.) Take your best ballhandler, put your widest body in front of him, and have the two of them turn the corner and take it right to the hoop. A kind of a power sweep, if you will. I think there is at least a chance that the defense would part like the Red Sea and your
guy could shoot a layup. Has anyone ever seen anything close to this tried? Did it work? Could it work? Have I gone totally over the edge?
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 04, 2004, 01:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 365
How is it on the other side of the edge?
__________________
"referee the defense"
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 04, 2004, 02:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by just another ref
(Yes, I do get ideas.) Take your best ballhandler, put your widest body in front of him, and have the two of them turn the corner and take it right to the hoop. A kind of a power sweep, if you will. I think there is at least a chance that the defense would part like the Red Sea and your
guy could shoot a layup. Has anyone ever seen anything close to this tried? Did it work? Could it work? Have I gone totally over the edge?
It will depend on the knowledge and experience of the opposing coach. It will work sometimes... and not others.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 10, 2004, 03:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 6
I did it this year several times to break the press-kind of like the flying wedge

Worked several times against fellow (very) weak teams.

Got our clock cleaned by most of the teams-must of been the coaching.

BTW-just finished my dual role of coaching youth league (above) and officiating again after a fifteen year layoff. Many props and thanks to all of you who have helped me be a MUCH better official than I was before I started participating in this forum.

Can't tell you how many times I have had situations that I read about here and end up using this forum as part of my personal pregame ritual before going to the site.

If anybody has info on officials camps in Raleigh/Central NC area, please let me know.

Chris

Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 10, 2004, 03:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: S.E. Iowa
Posts: 284
Quote:
Originally posted by footlocker
How is it on the other side of the edge?
ROTFLMAO
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 01:19am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,595
Quote:
Originally posted by Triangle NC ref
I did it this year several times to break the press-kind of like the flying wedge

Worked several times against fellow (very) weak teams.


See! Told ya!
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 01:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: N.D.
Posts: 1,829
Arrow

Correct, no foul without contact.

I've seen little kids screen with their arms straight out. Kinda funny.

In coaching, the biggest problem I had with screens was the person that the screen was set for (dribbler or cutter), cuts or dribbles so wide that the defender can easily get through the screen. I told the players to 'take some skin', i.e., bump your teammate so that there is no room for the defender to get through. I see players at ALL levels fail to use a screen properly.

"It takes two people for a screen to be effective."
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 10:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 199
Send a message via AIM to CYO Butch
Green Bay sweep

A team of 3rd grade girls, and the coach had them run a power sweep to the right. His two biggest girls lined up in a mini stack just above the circle, and as the point dribbled up to them, they took off to the right, almost shoulder to shoulder, with the point guard dribbling right behind them. They would get a couple of fouls called early in a game, but the intimidation factor was so great that after a couple of times, the girls from the other teams would just run out of their way. After two games of doing this, the rec department got on the coach's case (in writing) and also told the officials (in writing) that this was considered unsportsmanlike conduct any any further use of it would be a "T".

I guess the guy went back to football, since he kind of dropped out of sight after that season.
__________________
It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!
- Friedrich Nietzsche -
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 12:39pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,410
Send a message via AIM to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Send a message via MSN to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Send a message via Yahoo to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Re: Green Bay sweep

Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch
A team of 3rd grade girls, and the coach had them run a power sweep to the right. His two biggest girls lined up in a mini stack just above the circle, and as the point dribbled up to them, they took off to the right, almost shoulder to shoulder, with the point guard dribbling right behind them. They would get a couple of fouls called early in a game, but the intimidation factor was so great that after a couple of times, the girls from the other teams would just run out of their way. After two games of doing this, the rec department got on the coach's case (in writing) and also told the officials (in writing) that this was considered unsportsmanlike conduct any any further use of it would be a "T".

I guess the guy went back to football, since he kind of dropped out of sight after that season.

Please tell me that the officialsm, after receiving the letter from rec. dept., that what the team was doing was legal and not unsportsmanlike conduct, and showed the rec. dept. the rule book.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 01:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 521
Re: Re: Green Bay sweep

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by CYO Butch



Please tell me that the officialsm, after receiving the letter from rec. dept., that what the team was doing was legal and not unsportsmanlike conduct, and showed the rec. dept. the rule book.

This is not the NFHS or NCAA here. Rec departments and rec leagues make up all sorts of rules on how a game is to be played and called.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 02:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,220
MTD
Please tell me you don't think this is how you want third grade girls or boys to learn to play basketball. Pull this crap in HS and people will draw fouls, and you will stop doing this. But there is no reason to put third graders in a position of being told to stand in front of a freight train and take a charge for the team. They are not sufficiently skilled or experienced to have to deal with this kind of strategy, nor should they be. This isn't basketball as played at any level of the game. This is pure BS.

You really amaze me sometimes. This is clearly outside the spirit of the rules, is unsporting, and an inappropriate way to teach basketball to youth players. If you can't recognize this, you should stick to HS and skip the youth games. (This last piece for those who think we are a bunch of softies)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 03:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 199
Send a message via AIM to CYO Butch
Amen

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
MTD
Please tell me you don't think this is how you want third grade girls or boys to learn to play basketball. Pull this crap in HS and people will draw fouls, and you will stop doing this. But there is no reason to put third graders in a position of being told to stand in front of a freight train and take a charge for the team. They are not sufficiently skilled or experienced to have to deal with this kind of strategy, nor should they be. This isn't basketball as played at any level of the game. This is pure BS.

You really amaze me sometimes. This is clearly outside the spirit of the rules, is unsporting, and an inappropriate way to teach basketball to youth players. If you can't recognize this, you should stick to HS and skip the youth games. (This last piece for those who think we are a bunch of softies)
Of course the Green Bay Sweep is legal, per se, but it sure scared the heck out of those little girls. Hawks Coach, you, like many who post here, understand there is a HUGE difference between what goes on on behalf of the little ones and high school players for whom the official rules are written. The league in question (Montgomery County, MD, Department of Recreation) has a set of very explict guidelines for coach and parental behavior, playing time, etc. Their 3rd graders are not allowed to play zones. Imagine a little kid out there trying to guard their "man" when she is run over. Most of them really were terrified. This happened six years ago, but for the girls I worked with that year, they still remember playing in that game, how "dirty" the other team was, and how freightend they were when they saw the two" monsters" coming at them.

And by the way, MTD, just because it isn't illegal in the NFHS rule book doesn't mean it can't be unsportsmanlike. Do you think Dennis Rodman's intimidating behavior (choose your thug) in the NBA would be allowed in HS? There are age and level appropriate lines that shouldn't have to be spelled out in the book. For a league to give written guidance to the officials in it should be welcomed by the officials and should never deserve a rebuke from them. It is pretty common practice for youth leagues in general, and rec leagues in particular, to spell out differences from the NFHS book. In this case, the officials were glad to get the explicit direction so that it could be applied consistently by all of them.
__________________
It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!
- Friedrich Nietzsche -
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 11, 2004, 05:11pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
I would like to think I could have called this without direction from the league, but would have welcomed this directive.
MTD, it's only legal if the league says it is. They could even redefine traveling if they wanted to.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 12, 2004, 12:00am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,410
Send a message via AIM to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Send a message via MSN to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Send a message via Yahoo to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
In the structural engineering profession, a structural engineer is hired to design a building because he/she is the expert in designing buildings not the person who hired him/her. While the structural engineer is ethically required to put his client's needs before his/hers, that does not mean that he/she can ignore good engineering practice or design codes to give the client what he/she wants. If the client wants the building designed in such a way that would violate design codes or good engineering practice, the structural engineer is ethically required to ignore his/her client's desires.

How does the structural engineering example apply to the situation in this post. Simple, the basketball officials were hired by the recreation department because they are the experts in the rules of basketball and the mechanics of basketball officiating, and the recreation department is not. Just because the recreation department wants the game officials to ignore the rules, does not mean the game officials are to follow the recreation department's directive. The game officials have an ethical and professional duty to inform the recreation department that what it wants the game officials to do is in violation of the rules of basketball.

I know that there are officials in this post that thing that what the coach is doing is despicable, but having two players run down the court, shoulder-to-shoulder in front of the dribbler, is not an infraction of the rules. Yes, I know that recreation leagues draw up special rules for their leagues, such as running clock and stopped clock situations, timeouts per game, disqualification for a single unsportsmanlike technical foul, and such. But to attempt to charge a player with a technical foul for doing something that is legal under the rules is just wrong and a misguided attempt to enforce a psuedo sportsmanship rule.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 12, 2004, 01:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,628
From the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:

Officious (oh-fish-is) - adj - (1) Asserting authority in an overbearing way. (2) See above post.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1