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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2005, 11:34pm
MPLAHE
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Varsity girls scrimmage the other night. Had three illegal screen calls in the first quarter on the home team which had the coach a bit upset since he was obviously teaching this technique. As girls would move laterally in the front court, one of his girls would jumpstop in front of the moving defender. On occasion, the defender was able to avoid the screen, but in most cases the defender could not and would crash into the offensive player. I know this is a judgement call and can be a tough one to make, but in my opinion, the offensive player was not allowing the defender enough distance (1-2 steps/strides) to avoid the contact. Anyone else see this coaching teachnique in the girls game?

BTW, it stopped by the second quarter and the coach wanted to know why I wasn't allowing his kids to set picks. I told him if set properly, they can set all the picks they want, but these were not legal and better that they learn it now then during the season.
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Old Thu Nov 10, 2005, 11:50pm
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First of all there is really no such thing as a moving screen. The term has nothing to do with an illegal screen or not. You can have a still screener and the screen can be illegal. That is just a pet peeve of mine, ignore my comments.

As a general philosophy I do not reward players being screened with fouls when they decide to not run thru the screen or stop and change direction. There has to be (in my way of thinking) some kind of displacement. If there is just "touching" I do not have a foul. I was not at your game to decide what really was illegal. If there was contact and you feel it was enough for a foul, then maybe you should have called it. That is after all why we get paid the big bucks.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 10, 2005, 11:51pm
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Would only comment that many illegal screens never become a foul because the screened player runs around the moving or late screen and avoids contact or most contact. Remember, no contact, no foul, even though the screen is illegal.
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 04:35am
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Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
As girls would move laterally in the front court, one of his girls would jumpstop in front of the moving defender. On occasion, the defender was able to avoid the screen, but in most cases the defender could not and would crash into the offensive player.
SECTION 39 SCREEN
ART. 1 . . . A screen is legal action by a player who, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position.
ART. 2 . . . To establish a legal screening position:

a. The screener may face any direction.
b. Time and distance are relevant.
c. The screener must be stationary, except when both are moving in the same path and the same direction.

ART. 3 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from the front or side, the

screener may be anywhere short of contact.

ART. 4 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from behind, the screener must allow the opponent one normal step backward without contact.

ART. 5 . . . When screening a moving opponent, the screener must allow the opponent time and distance to avoid contact. The distance need not be more than two strides.

ART. 6 . . . When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener is moving, the opponent is responsible for contact if the screener slows up or stops.


Sounds like you got it right to me. The coach needs to understand that his clever technique is illegal.

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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 04:42am
MPLAHE
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Quote:
Originally posted by RibbyL
Would only comment that many illegal screens never become a foul because the screened player runs around the moving or late screen and avoids contact or most contact. Remember, no contact, no foul, even though the screen is illegal.
Agreed - that is why I passed on several before and after the actual calls. I have found this to be something you have to be aware of early in the game, especially in girls games. There can be some significant contact on these plays and kids can get hurt and your game can get off to a bad start if you don't stop it early.
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 05:43am
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Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
There can be some significant contact on these plays and kids can get hurt and your game can get off to a bad start if you don't stop it early.

Bad, bad, way to think about this...

There can be significant contact in basketball that is quite legal. Don't call fouls or "stop it early" on action that is legal because "kids can get hurt." Your job as an official is to follow the rules. If someone gets hurt on a legal play that is unfortunate, but a part of sports.

Rule 4
SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.
ART. 1 . . . The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 3 . . . Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.
ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 07:29am
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Quote:
Originally posted by RibbyL
Would only comment that many illegal screens never become a foul because the screened player runs around the moving or late screen and avoids contact or most contact. Remember, no contact, no foul, even though the screen is illegal.

If there was no illegal contact, the screen was a legal screen. Only if there was illegal contract then the screen was illegal.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
First of all there is really no such thing as a moving screen. That is just a pet peeve of mine, ignore my comments.
Ok, we'll ignore the comments, because there really is such a thing as a moving screen and it can be legal, too!

Quote:
SECTION 39 SCREEN

ART. 6 . . . When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener is moving, the opponent is responsible for contact if the screener slows up or stops.
I know you know this, and I know what you meant. I just didn't want any newbies to take you literally.
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 09:00am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Only if there was illegal contract...

MTD, Sr.
These are high school kids. Almost all of them are under 18; so there would be many illegal contracts.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 01:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
First of all there is really no such thing as a moving screen. That is just a pet peeve of mine, ignore my comments.
Ok, we'll ignore the comments, because there really is such a thing as a moving screen and it can be legal, too!

Quote:
SECTION 39 SCREEN

ART. 6 . . . When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener is moving, the opponent is responsible for contact if the screener slows up or stops.
I know you know this, and I know what you meant. I just didn't want any newbies to take you literally.
The rulebook does not use the term "moving screen." There is not such definition as "moving screen" either. The point is the usage of the term "moving screen" does not tell anyone that the screen is legal or illegal. A screen can be moving or not moving and be completely illegal. A screen can be moving or not be moving and be completely legal. Using the term in my opinion clouds the actual rule. You do not have to agree, but there are many examples that a moving screen is shown to be legal. The Simplified and Illustrated book is a great example of that.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 02:15pm
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Reproduced directly and accurately from the 2001-02 RULE BOOK:

POE #4C-.Screens
.Moving screens
1. The screener must be stationary upon contact.
2. It is not a moving screen unless there is contact.

'Nuff said.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Reproduced directly and accurately from the 2001-02 RULE BOOK:

POE #4C-.Screens
.Moving screens
1. The screener must be stationary upon contact.
2. It is not a moving screen unless there is contact.

'Nuff said.
Maybe it's a regional thing. Rut's area might not acknowledge "moving screens." They may also have an assignor who won't give them games if they wear belted pants or use the term "moving screens."

Z
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 05:00pm
MPLAHE
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
There can be some significant contact on these plays and kids can get hurt and your game can get off to a bad start if you don't stop it early.

Bad, bad, way to think about this...

There can be significant contact in basketball that is quite legal. Don't call fouls or "stop it early" on action that is legal because "kids can get hurt." Your job as an official is to follow the rules. If someone gets hurt on a legal play that is unfortunate, but a part of sports.

Rule 4
SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.
ART. 1 . . . The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 3 . . . Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.
ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.
I certainly understand that there can be signficant contact that is legal and acceptable as part of the game. My only point is that when there is an opportunity to prevent it by making a few calls, you can and should prevent unnecessary contact which may result in injury. Just my opinion.
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Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
There can be some significant contact on these plays and kids can get hurt and your game can get off to a bad start if you don't stop it early.

Bad, bad, way to think about this...

There can be significant contact in basketball that is quite legal. Don't call fouls or "stop it early" on action that is legal because "kids can get hurt." Your job as an official is to follow the rules. If someone gets hurt on a legal play that is unfortunate, but a part of sports.

Rule 4
SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.
ART. 1 . . . The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 3 . . . Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.
ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.
I certainly understand that there can be signficant contact that is legal and acceptable as part of the game. My only point is that when there is an opportunity to prevent it by making a few calls, you can and should prevent unnecessary contact which may result in injury. Just my opinion.
Nevada's point, which is completely correct btw, is that you have to have illegal contact in order to have a foul. Significant or unecessary or hard contact does not always equate to illegal contact. You should never try to inject yourself into a game by trying to prevent significant or unnecessary contact if that significant or unnecessary contact is not illegal contact.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:24 PM]
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 11, 2005, 06:29pm
MPLAHE
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by MPLAHE
There can be some significant contact on these plays and kids can get hurt and your game can get off to a bad start if you don't stop it early.

Bad, bad, way to think about this...

There can be significant contact in basketball that is quite legal. Don't call fouls or "stop it early" on action that is legal because "kids can get hurt." Your job as an official is to follow the rules. If someone gets hurt on a legal play that is unfortunate, but a part of sports.

Rule 4
SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.
ART. 1 . . . The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 3 . . . Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.
ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.
I certainly understand that there can be signficant contact that is legal and acceptable as part of the game. My only point is that when there is an opportunity to prevent it by making a few calls, you can and should prevent unnecessary contact which may result in injury. Just my opinion.
Nevada's point, which is completely correct btw, is that you have to have illegal contact in order to have a foul. Significant or unecessary or hard contact does not always equate to illegal contact. You should never try to inject yourself into a game by trying to prevent significant or unnecessary contact if that significant or unnecessary contact is not illegal contact.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2005 at 05:24 PM]
I hear what you are saying and I agree - I guess I wasn't making my point clear. The calls I am referring to ARE in fact illegal contact and should be called to prevent futute unnecessary contact. I have seen some games get out of hand because officials are either unwilling or are ball watching and miss these type of fouls. That is the prevention I am referring to.
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