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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 01:40am
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So do you see from all the threads in regards to an Illegal Screen? We have different answers, reasons and definitions.....but still NO concrete answer to the Original question.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 02:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So do you see from all the threads in regards to an Illegal Screen? We have different answers, reasons and definitions.....but still NO concrete answer to the Original question.
Can't figure out your question in OP.

Maybe try again, without all the suppositions and declarative statements left out.....

hint: Illegal screen is a meaningful term in officiating jargon and should result in a personal foul, never a violation.

Moving screen is used by ignorant laypersons
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 06:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I typed the wrong Rule reference. It should have read: R4-S40-A6, not R4-S40-S4.

I corrected my original post.

MTD, Sr.
Moving screen still not in the NFHS rule book.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 06:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So do you see from all the threads in regards to an Illegal Screen? We have different answers, reasons and definitions.....but still NO concrete answer to the Original question.
It was answered in the first reply. If no contact it's not a violation or a foul.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 08:34am
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Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
It was answered in the first reply. If no contact it's not a violation or a foul.
And in posts 3, 4, 7, 10.

After that, things mutated a bit since the OP was correctly answered.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 09:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umonblue View Post
So do you see from all the threads in regards to an Illegal Screen? We have different answers, reasons and definitions.....but still NO concrete answer to the Original question.
The original question was a misinterpretation of what happened. We still don't know what happened in the original play.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 10:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
Rule 4. Definitions Section 40 Screen is where you will find your answer.

"Moving screen" is not in the NFHS rule book. Things that happen in college do not necessarily translate to NFHS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Nolan:

I think you need to re-read NFHS R4-S40-A6 again before you make that statement. I don't have my NCAA Men's and Women's Rules Books in front of me but they have the same Definition as the NFHS Rules have.

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
Oh I did before I made the post. It's not there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I typed the wrong Rule reference. It should have read: R4-S40-A6, not R4-S40-S4.

I corrected my original post.

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
Moving screen still not in the NFHS rule book.


NolanJJ68:

From the most recent Rules Codes (NFHS: 2017-18; NCAA Men's/Women's: 2017-18 and 2018-19):

NFHS R4-S40-A6: "When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his/her opponent."


NCAA Men's R4-S35-A5: "When opponents are moving in exactly the same path and direction (one behind the other) and the screener slows down or stops and contact results, the trailing player shall be responsible for such contact."


NCAA Women's R10-S5-A5: "When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and direction and the screener slows down or stops and contact results, the trailing player shall be responsible for such contact."


We can also go back as far as the 1963-64 (the oldest Rules Book in my Library, and you should appreciate me climbing up into my attic this morning to get it, just ask BillyMac) National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (NBC, the predecessor Rules Committee to the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees) Rules Book, from it Comments on the Rules (prior to the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees, the Definitions of Guarding and Screening were not in Rule 4 but in the Comments on the Rules after Rule 10:

"3. Screening-- ... When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his opponent. ...


One can see a pattern here: "Moving screen" has been in the Rules for quite some time.

MTD, Sr.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrounge View Post
True....but rule 4-40-2 says the screener must be stationary, and 10-7-11 says it's a foul if a player does not adhere to the rules of screening found in 4-40. So....would not 'moving' be a reasonable opposite of 'stationary'? Non-stationary sounds a bit stilted, no?

Seems to me that "moving screen" is a perfectly reasonable phrase to use for a foul, as a common description to why this particular illegal screen is illegal.
So is the screen moving when you set your feet outside of your frame? What about if you are "set" and you do not give your opponent the proper time and distance? There are many examples of screens that can be illegal and totally set. There are more requirements for a screen than if you are moving or not.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So is the screen moving when you set your feet outside of your frame? What about if you are "set" and you do not give your opponent the proper time and distance? There are many examples of screens that can be illegal and totally set. There are more requirements for a screen than if you are moving or not.

Peace
Of course not, I never meant to say that *all* illegal screens are "moving screens", just that it's a perfectly acceptable common language way of explaining why a particular illegal screen would be illegal. Just like "arm bar", "playing thru the back", "cut off" are common categories for pass interference, this is a handy way of categorizing the type of illegal screen. It's not the only illegal screen in the rule book by any means, but it's absolutely there as one type of illegal screen, by any reasonable description. That's all I'm saying.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So is the screen moving when you set your feet outside of your frame? What about if you are "set" and you do not give your opponent the proper time and distance? There are many examples of screens that can be illegal and totally set. There are more requirements for a screen than if you are moving or not.

Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrounge View Post
Of course not, I never meant to say that *all* illegal screens are "moving screens", just that it's a perfectly acceptable common language way of explaining why a particular illegal screen would be illegal. Just like "arm bar", "playing thru the back", "cut off" are common categories for pass interference, this is a handy way of categorizing the type of illegal screen. It's not the only illegal screen in the rule book by any means, but it's absolutely there as one type of illegal screen, by any reasonable description. That's all I'm saying.

"Time and Distance" is the requirement for setting a legal Screen, whether it is a Stationary Screen or a Moving Screen. One cannot go wrong when asked what did the Screener do wrong when setting an illegal Screen by replying each and every time: "He/she did not give "Time and Distance" when setting his/her screen." It is short (at least by my standards, LOL) and sweet, and is accurate per the Rules.

MTD, Sr.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NolanJJ68:

From the most recent Rules Codes (NFHS: 2017-18; NCAA Men's/Women's: 2017-18 and 2018-19):

NFHS R4-S40-A6: "When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his/her opponent."


NCAA Men's R4-S35-A5: "When opponents are moving in exactly the same path and direction (one behind the other) and the screener slows down or stops and contact results, the trailing player shall be responsible for such contact."


NCAA Women's R10-S5-A5: "When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and direction and the screener slows down or stops and contact results, the trailing player shall be responsible for such contact."


We can also go back as far as the 1963-64 (the oldest Rules Book in my Library, and you should appreciate me climbing up into my attic this morning to get it, just ask BillyMac) National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (NBC, the predecessor Rules Committee to the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees) Rules Book, from it Comments on the Rules (prior to the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees, the Definitions of Guarding and Screening were not in Rule 4 but in the Comments on the Rules after Rule 10:

"3. Screening-- ... When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his opponent. ...


One can see a pattern here: "Moving screen" has been in the Rules for quite some time.

MTD, Sr.
You have chosen to parse my words to prove that the words moving and screen appear in the rule book. Fine, I give up. My point was "Moving screen" those words as quoted do not exist in the rule book as a definition, as a violation, or as a foul as the OP asked about. I was trying to help end the myth of "moving screen" that we hear ignorant coaches and parents scream about. I also hear "illegal screen" when players are moving next to each other with no contact. Another one of my favorites. As I said, I give up. Last post on this subject.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 02:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
You have chosen to parse my words to prove that the words moving and screen appear in the rule book. Fine, I give up. My point was "Moving screen" those words as quoted do not exist in the rule book as a definition, as a violation, or as a foul as the OP asked about. I was trying to help end the myth of "moving screen" that we hear ignorant coaches and parents scream about. I also hear "illegal screen" when players are moving next to each other with no contact. Another one of my favorites. As I said, I give up. Last post on this subject.

I humbly accept your surrender "young padawan". Have a great season.

MTD, Sr.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Sat Feb 10, 2018 at 10:29pm. Reason: Changed "graciously" to "humbly".
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 03:41pm
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Why Can't They Be Like We Were, Perfect In Every Way ???

What's The Matter With Kids Today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
"He/she did not give "Time and Distance" when setting his/her screen."
Most of the illegal screens seen around these parts involve the screener illegally sticking out a leg, a hip, or an elbow to impede the progress of the defender.

What's wrong with coaches today? Back in the mid-twentieth century, we were taught to get there a little early, get set, and don't over extend any body part. I guess that coaches today don't teach that anymore. Also, kids today aren't taught how to use screens properly. We were taught to get as close to the screener as possible, usually shoulder to shoulder, not leaving any room for a defender to squeeze in. Players today don't get as close to the screener, forcing the screener to move, or to overextend a body part, in order to screen off the defender.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 10, 2018 at 03:50pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
"Time and Distance" is the requirement for setting a legal Screen, whether it is a Stationary Screen or a Moving Screen. One cannot go wrong when asked what did the Screener do wrong when setting an illegal Screen by replying each and every time: "He/she did not give "Time and Distance" when setting his/her screen." It is short (at least by my standards, LOL) and sweet, and is accurate per the Rules.

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What's The Matter With Kids Today?



Most of the illegal screens seen around these parts involve the screener illegally sticking out a leg, a hip, or an elbow to impede the progress of the defender.

What's wrong with coaches today? Back in the mid-twentieth century, we were taught to get there a little early, get set, and don't over extend any body part. I guess that coaches today don't teach that anymore. Also, kids today aren't taught how to use screens properly. We were taught to get as close to the screener as possible, usually shoulder to shoulder, not leaving any room for a defender to squeeze in. Players today don't get as close to the screener, forcing the screener to move, or to overextend a body part, in order to screen off the defender.

Bill:

Sticking out a leg or a hip would definitely would be an infraction of Time and Distance. Using the elbow to impede that progress of the Screened Player could fall more under Holding; just my two cents.

I would be willing to qualify my original statement such that it applies to the vast majority Illegal Screens that we have over the course of the season. And I like it because it is "short and succinct" (a phrase that is rarely associated with me, LOL).

MTD, Sr.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 10, 2018, 04:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrounge View Post
Of course not, I never meant to say that *all* illegal screens are "moving screens", just that it's a perfectly acceptable common language way of explaining why a particular illegal screen would be illegal. Just like "arm bar", "playing thru the back", "cut off" are common categories for pass interference, this is a handy way of categorizing the type of illegal screen. It's not the only illegal screen in the rule book by any means, but it's absolutely there as one type of illegal screen, by any reasonable description. That's all I'm saying.
You should not use a term that bastardizes the rule. If you say moving screens are illegal and there is no contact and displacement (required even by an illegal screen) then you might misunderstand the rule. Players often stop short of any contact or contact that would cause displacement. Sometimes players move and slip on the screen and it was never set, but they did not create any contact or displace their opponent. Again this is why we should stay away from the term. And blind screens require a normal step, well a blind screen can be set and totally illegal. A screen again is either legal or illegal and it does not matter if you are moving or not.

Heck, I have not called an illegal screen because when the potential screened player sees the screen, they stop and move around the bad screen. I will put it this way, in football, it is not holding just because you are held. It is holding when you demonstrate you are trying to get away and the point of attack is affected. If you cannot keep going on the screen or stop and give up because someone is in front of you in basketball, I am not calling the foul. It is really that simple for me.

Peace
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