The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 01:08am
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
When is "Time Out!" a request?

JV-B tonight. A-1 is being heavily guarded by B-2 and B-3 near the division. Fearing a turnover, Coach A yells "TIME OUT!" just as A-1 loses the ball. I glance over to the bench to make sure it was the head coach, blow my whistle, and grant it. Coach B is not happy with my decision.

Here's what I saw/heard, if you were to look at it on a timeline: A-1 has player control..."TIME"...A-1 loses control..."OUT!" Yes, it was that quick and close.

I never thought about it before, but when is officially a request? Does starting "TIME OUT" while there's player control count, or must he actually complete the quick phrase? I gave the coach the benefit of the doubt.

Thoughts?
__________________
Confidence is a vehicle, not a destination.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 01:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 22
Technically (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the words 'time out' are not implicitly necessary for requesting a timeout.

Situations come to mind when coaches have gotten my attention by saying 'ref' and signaling timeout when I look at them.

With that in mind, I would say the timeout should be awarded when you as an official recognize they want one and the team has player control or the ball is at a player's disposal.

In your situation, you could get away with giving Team A the time out - I would suggest verbally making it clear when granting the time out that it was called before the ball was lost.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 02:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 336
When granted, not requested

Though common in almost every game, avoiding 'retroactive' timeout calls can help prevent these tough situations. Requesting time out during live ball, especially when a turnover or violation is imminent, puts officials in a tight spot.

Get comfortable with the phrase "I heard your request, but BY RULE, I can only grant timeout when your player is in control of the ball", and "I'll do the same on the other side".

Game awareness is critical. Anticipating when a coach may request will also help mitigate issues.

NCAA-W put out memo that when whistle is blown for a timeout and no player is in control, it is an inadvertent whistle. Of course, either team may then call a timeout when ball is dead.
__________________
Trust your partners, but trust yourself more. Training, experience and intuition are your currency.

Last edited by pizanno; Wed Feb 07, 2018 at 02:28am.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 08:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 178
Rule 8-1-3 states "Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:..."

Many times I will hear a time-out request, and all conditions are met, but by the time I signal (whistle and hand), the ball may be out of player control. I tell the coach that there was player control at the time of the request. The rule doesn't say "such request being granted and signaled only when..."

Am I correct?
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 08:54am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizanno View Post
Though common in almost every game, avoiding 'retroactive' timeout calls can help prevent these tough situations. Requesting time out during live ball, especially when a turnover or violation is imminent, puts officials in a tight spot.

Get comfortable with the phrase "I heard your request, but BY RULE, I can only grant timeout when your player is in control of the ball", and "I'll do the same on the other side".

Game awareness is critical. Anticipating when a coach may request will also help mitigate issues.

NCAA-W put out memo that when whistle is blown for a timeout and no player is in control, it is an inadvertent whistle. Of course, either team may then call a timeout when ball is dead.


I have been retired as a women's college official for ten years but without seeing the actual wording of the memo it would appear that the memo is poorly written. As we all know that before we can grant the TO request we must verify that it is the HC or in the case of a women's game an AC is making the request. We know that between the time the request is made and air is actually put in the whistle that a number of things to the status of the Ball can occur. I hope the memo means that the Team making the request is not to be "penalized" because the Game Official followed proper protocol.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 08:55am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Rule 8-1-3 states "Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:..."

Many times I will hear a time-out request, and all conditions are met, but by the time I signal (whistle and hand), the ball may be out of player control. I tell the coach that there was player control at the time of the request. The rule doesn't say "such request being granted and signaled only when..."

Am I correct?

You are correct.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 09:29am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
As we all know that before we can grant the TO request we must verify that it is the HC or in the case of a women's game an AC is making the request.
Not correct.

Section 14. Timeouts Granted and Charged
Art. 1. A timeout shall be granted and charged after a visual or oral request is
made by a player or head coach in .a through .c or the conditions in .d and .e
exist:
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 09:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 134
we should borrow the TO mechanic from Water Polo

In HS Water Polo around here each bench has an airhorn. When a coach wants a timeout he gives a quick blast. Sounds a bit comical I know, but it's actually a good system. As you can imagine in a natorium it is very loud during a game, and this way there is no mistaking what's going on. The ticket taker out in the hallway know a timeout has been requested.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 11:16am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Rule 8-1-3 states "Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:..."

Many times I will hear a time-out request, and all conditions are met, but by the time I signal (whistle and hand), the ball may be out of player control. I tell the coach that there was player control at the time of the request. The rule doesn't say "such request being granted and signaled only when..."

Am I correct?
Yes, and I always verbalize loudly, such as--"before the pass/travel/loose ball/held ball, time-out White".
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 12:36pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Not correct.

Section 14. Timeouts Granted and Charged
Art. 1. A timeout shall be granted and charged after a visual or oral request is
made by a player or head coach in .a through .c or the conditions in .d and .e
exist:

I stand corrected with regard to the AC. I retired from the women's game 10 years ago and I thought that had been adopted after I retired.

Thanks for the correction.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 12:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 14
Team Control or Player Control

This happened to me during a game and my partner granted a team a TO when a player had clearly lost the ball. So my question is do you need player control or team control to grant a TO. I was under the assumption of player control because it would be a disadvantage to the defense if granted with team control. Example team A has control. Player A1 has the ball and loses control of the ball. Coach calls TO. In the NFHS rules team control is not lost until B gains possession of the ball. So in essence anytime team A loses the ball then Team A can call TO before team B possesses because they have team control.

Is this correct? I have been an official for 25 years and I have always granted TO's with player control am I correct or is it based on team control?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 12:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrucks1 View Post
This happened to me during a game and my partner granted a team a TO when a player had clearly lost the ball. So my question is do you need player control or team control to grant a TO. I was under the assumption of player control because it would be a disadvantage to the defense if granted with team control. Example team A has control. Player A1 has the ball and loses control of the ball. Coach calls TO. In the NFHS rules team control is not lost until B gains possession of the ball. So in essence anytime team A loses the ball then Team A can call TO before team B possesses because they have team control.

Is this correct? I have been an official for 25 years and I have always granted TO's with player control am I correct or is it based on team control?
PC or disposal (during a throw-in or a FT)
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 12:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrucks1 View Post
This happened to me during a game and my partner granted a team a TO when a player had clearly lost the ball. So my question is do you need player control or team control to grant a TO. I was under the assumption of player control because it would be a disadvantage to the defense if granted with team control. Example team A has control. Player A1 has the ball and loses control of the ball. Coach calls TO. In the NFHS rules team control is not lost until B gains possession of the ball. So in essence anytime team A loses the ball then Team A can call TO before team B possesses because they have team control.

Is this correct? I have been an official for 25 years and I have always granted TO's with player control am I correct or is it based on team control?
Rule 5. SEC. 8 ART. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a. The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a playerdirected to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

Last edited by nolanjj68; Wed Feb 07, 2018 at 01:00pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 12:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanjj68 View Post
SEC. 8 ART. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a. The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a playerdirected to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.
Thank you that is what I thought. I was working with a newer official and I warned them that if they grant TO's using the team control concept that is a very slippery slope. However when I read the rule book it wasn't clear at the time. Thanks for clearing that up for me!!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 07, 2018, 04:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 671
Had this exact scenario in a boys V game the other night; even though I clearly stated the timeout was before the turnover (i distinctly heard "timeout" as the player was approaching the division line" with the ball, turned my head quickly to verify, and blew it, as I blew it I see the other team stealing a pass..) Coach tried to convince me it wasn't when it was called by the coach but when I blew the whistle.... I believe my comments was "That's not accurate Coach".

The other one I have seen is when a kid rises up and makes a cross court pass and the coach tries to call time out while its in the air. Sorry Coach.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2016 NCAA Rule Change: OBS - "About to Receive" vs. "In the act of Catching" teebob21 Softball 15 Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:16pm
Vid Request - Missouri/Vandy "on the floor" ballgame99 Basketball 15 Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:44am
Video Request: Michigan/Duke, Throw-In Violation, Coach K "T" (Clip Added) bainsey Basketball 22 Fri Dec 06, 2013 08:57am
More than just a foul "request", will this trickle down? Back In The Saddle Basketball 1 Fri Nov 13, 2009 08:29pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:28pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1