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-   -   When is "Time Out!" a request? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103481-when-time-out-request.html)

bainsey Wed Feb 07, 2018 01:08am

When is "Time Out!" a request?
 
JV-B tonight. A-1 is being heavily guarded by B-2 and B-3 near the division. Fearing a turnover, Coach A yells "TIME OUT!" just as A-1 loses the ball. I glance over to the bench to make sure it was the head coach, blow my whistle, and grant it. Coach B is not happy with my decision.

Here's what I saw/heard, if you were to look at it on a timeline: A-1 has player control..."TIME"...A-1 loses control..."OUT!" Yes, it was that quick and close.

I never thought about it before, but when is officially a request? Does starting "TIME OUT" while there's player control count, or must he actually complete the quick phrase? I gave the coach the benefit of the doubt.

Thoughts?

jas4yf Wed Feb 07, 2018 01:33am

Technically (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the words 'time out' are not implicitly necessary for requesting a timeout.

Situations come to mind when coaches have gotten my attention by saying 'ref' and signaling timeout when I look at them.

With that in mind, I would say the timeout should be awarded when you as an official recognize they want one and the team has player control or the ball is at a player's disposal.

In your situation, you could get away with giving Team A the time out - I would suggest verbally making it clear when granting the time out that it was called before the ball was lost.

pizanno Wed Feb 07, 2018 02:24am

When granted, not requested
 
Though common in almost every game, avoiding 'retroactive' timeout calls can help prevent these tough situations. Requesting time out during live ball, especially when a turnover or violation is imminent, puts officials in a tight spot.

Get comfortable with the phrase "I heard your request, but BY RULE, I can only grant timeout when your player is in control of the ball", and "I'll do the same on the other side".

Game awareness is critical. Anticipating when a coach may request will also help mitigate issues.

NCAA-W put out memo that when whistle is blown for a timeout and no player is in control, it is an inadvertent whistle. Of course, either team may then call a timeout when ball is dead.

ChuckS Wed Feb 07, 2018 08:45am

Rule 8-1-3 states "Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:..."

Many times I will hear a time-out request, and all conditions are met, but by the time I signal (whistle and hand), the ball may be out of player control. I tell the coach that there was player control at the time of the request. The rule doesn't say "such request being granted and signaled only when..."

Am I correct?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Feb 07, 2018 08:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizanno (Post 1016443)
Though common in almost every game, avoiding 'retroactive' timeout calls can help prevent these tough situations. Requesting time out during live ball, especially when a turnover or violation is imminent, puts officials in a tight spot.

Get comfortable with the phrase "I heard your request, but BY RULE, I can only grant timeout when your player is in control of the ball", and "I'll do the same on the other side".

Game awareness is critical. Anticipating when a coach may request will also help mitigate issues.

NCAA-W put out memo that when whistle is blown for a timeout and no player is in control, it is an inadvertent whistle. Of course, either team may then call a timeout when ball is dead.



I have been retired as a women's college official for ten years but without seeing the actual wording of the memo it would appear that the memo is poorly written. As we all know that before we can grant the TO request we must verify that it is the HC or in the case of a women's game an AC is making the request. We know that between the time the request is made and air is actually put in the whistle that a number of things to the status of the Ball can occur. I hope the memo means that the Team making the request is not to be "penalized" because the Game Official followed proper protocol.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Feb 07, 2018 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS (Post 1016455)
Rule 8-1-3 states "Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:..."

Many times I will hear a time-out request, and all conditions are met, but by the time I signal (whistle and hand), the ball may be out of player control. I tell the coach that there was player control at the time of the request. The rule doesn't say "such request being granted and signaled only when..."

Am I correct?


You are correct.

MTD, Sr.

bob jenkins Wed Feb 07, 2018 09:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1016456)
As we all know that before we can grant the TO request we must verify that it is the HC or in the case of a women's game an AC is making the request.

Not correct.

Section 14. Timeouts Granted and Charged
Art. 1. A timeout shall be granted and charged after a visual or oral request is
made by a player or head coach in .a through .c or the conditions in .d and .e
exist:

rotationslim Wed Feb 07, 2018 09:52am

we should borrow the TO mechanic from Water Polo
 
In HS Water Polo around here each bench has an airhorn. When a coach wants a timeout he gives a quick blast. Sounds a bit comical I know, but it's actually a good system. As you can imagine in a natorium it is very loud during a game, and this way there is no mistaking what's going on. The ticket taker out in the hallway know a timeout has been requested.

Raymond Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS (Post 1016455)
Rule 8-1-3 states "Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:..."

Many times I will hear a time-out request, and all conditions are met, but by the time I signal (whistle and hand), the ball may be out of player control. I tell the coach that there was player control at the time of the request. The rule doesn't say "such request being granted and signaled only when..."

Am I correct?

Yes, and I always verbalize loudly, such as--"before the pass/travel/loose ball/held ball, time-out White".

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1016466)
Not correct.

Section 14. Timeouts Granted and Charged
Art. 1. A timeout shall be granted and charged after a visual or oral request is
made by a player or head coach in .a through .c or the conditions in .d and .e
exist:


I stand corrected with regard to the AC. I retired from the women's game 10 years ago and I thought that had been adopted after I retired.

Thanks for the correction.

MTD, Sr.

lrucks1 Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:52pm

Team Control or Player Control
 
This happened to me during a game and my partner granted a team a TO when a player had clearly lost the ball. So my question is do you need player control or team control to grant a TO. I was under the assumption of player control because it would be a disadvantage to the defense if granted with team control. Example team A has control. Player A1 has the ball and loses control of the ball. Coach calls TO. In the NFHS rules team control is not lost until B gains possession of the ball. So in essence anytime team A loses the ball then Team A can call TO before team B possesses because they have team control.

Is this correct? I have been an official for 25 years and I have always granted TO's with player control am I correct or is it based on team control?

bob jenkins Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrucks1 (Post 1016498)
This happened to me during a game and my partner granted a team a TO when a player had clearly lost the ball. So my question is do you need player control or team control to grant a TO. I was under the assumption of player control because it would be a disadvantage to the defense if granted with team control. Example team A has control. Player A1 has the ball and loses control of the ball. Coach calls TO. In the NFHS rules team control is not lost until B gains possession of the ball. So in essence anytime team A loses the ball then Team A can call TO before team B possesses because they have team control.

Is this correct? I have been an official for 25 years and I have always granted TO's with player control am I correct or is it based on team control?

PC or disposal (during a throw-in or a FT)

nolanjj68 Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrucks1 (Post 1016498)
This happened to me during a game and my partner granted a team a TO when a player had clearly lost the ball. So my question is do you need player control or team control to grant a TO. I was under the assumption of player control because it would be a disadvantage to the defense if granted with team control. Example team A has control. Player A1 has the ball and loses control of the ball. Coach calls TO. In the NFHS rules team control is not lost until B gains possession of the ball. So in essence anytime team A loses the ball then Team A can call TO before team B possesses because they have team control.

Is this correct? I have been an official for 25 years and I have always granted TO's with player control am I correct or is it based on team control?

Rule 5. SEC. 8 ART. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a. The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a playerdirected to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

lrucks1 Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolanjj68 (Post 1016500)
SEC. 8 ART. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:

a. The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a playerdirected to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

Thank you that is what I thought. I was working with a newer official and I warned them that if they grant TO's using the team control concept that is a very slippery slope. However when I read the rule book it wasn't clear at the time. Thanks for clearing that up for me!!

ballgame99 Wed Feb 07, 2018 04:31pm

Had this exact scenario in a boys V game the other night; even though I clearly stated the timeout was before the turnover (i distinctly heard "timeout" as the player was approaching the division line" with the ball, turned my head quickly to verify, and blew it, as I blew it I see the other team stealing a pass..) Coach tried to convince me it wasn't when it was called by the coach but when I blew the whistle.... I believe my comments was "That's not accurate Coach".

The other one I have seen is when a kid rises up and makes a cross court pass and the coach tries to call time out while its in the air. Sorry Coach.


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