Sub to shoot Technical Foul free throws

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by BDevil15

Hi Guys, obligatory I'm a coach not an official and I appreciate all that you guys do. I can not find my rulebook this morning so just want to come to the source. High School boys, player on opposing team receives a tech late in the game last night. I go to sub my best free throw shooter to shoot the free throws and official says I have to choose from someone who was on the floor at the time. It worked out great actually and one of my kids who rarely scores got to shoot them but am I just so tired that I'm totally wrong on this? Can't anyone on the bench or floor shoot those free throws?

Thanks for what you guys do and I apologize for myself and my fellow coaches, you guys do great things for kids.

You were right. Anyone can sub in to shoot a Tech FT, unless you had just subbed that player out, as they must sit until the clock legally starts before they are allowed back in.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by frezer11

You were right. Anyone can sub in to shoot a Tech FT, unless you had just subbed that player out, as they must sit until the clock legally starts before they are allowed back in.

Frezer11:

I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.


NFHS R8-S3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).


NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4: Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.


NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3: Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws.


I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct.

A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs.

You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment?

Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified.

For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents.

Let the debate begin.

MTD, Sr.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Frezer11:

I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.


NFHS R8-S3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).


NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4: Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.


NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3: Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws.


I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct.

A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs.

You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment?

Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified.

For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents.

Let the debate begin.

MTD, Sr.

NFHS case 8.2 Sit A: (2 separate shooters for TF FT's is legal)

NFHS case 8.3 Sit: (gotta sit a tick)

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Frezer11:

I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.


NFHS R8-S3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).


NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4: Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.


NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3: Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws.


I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct.

A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs.

You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment?

Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified.

For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents.

Let the debate begin.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, I actually agree with you, and would have a hard time if presented this situation in a game, not allowing the substituted player attempt those FTs. I just know we had a discussion within the last couple weeks on this forum about allowing a substituted player to come back to shoot these, and the general consensus was that they should not be allowed:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...k-does-he.html

[Nevadaref]

Sorry, MTD, but that is not allowed.
Substitution rules need to be enforced. At that time the team member is not an eligible substitute.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, MTD, but that is not allowed.
Substitution rules need to be enforced. At that time the team member is not an eligible substitute.

That is correct. The player is not eligible to return to shoot the free throws. However, if he is erroneously allowed to return and shoot he becomes a legal player and the results of the free throws stand and is not correctable. See Illegal Entry 3.3.3 Situation B.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Frezer11:I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.
NFHS R8-S3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).
NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4: Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.
NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3: Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws. I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct. A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs. You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment? Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified. For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents. Let the debate begin.MTD, Sr.

We've got Welpe to thank for this. I don't remember a Forum vote to rescind Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s ban from the Forum. Maybe Welpe should reconsider his decision?