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-   -   Sub to shoot Technical Foul free throws (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103453-sub-shoot-technical-foul-free-throws.html)

BDevil15 Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:18am

Sub to shoot Technical Foul free throws
 
Hi Guys, obligatory I'm a coach not an official and I appreciate all that you guys do. I can not find my rulebook this morning so just want to come to the source. High School boys, player on opposing team receives a tech late in the game last night. I go to sub my best free throw shooter to shoot the free throws and official says I have to choose from someone who was on the floor at the time. It worked out great actually and one of my kids who rarely scores got to shoot them but am I just so tired that I'm totally wrong on this? Can't anyone on the bench or floor shoot those free throws?

Thanks for what you guys do and I apologize for myself and my fellow coaches, you guys do great things for kids.

frezer11 Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDevil15 (Post 1016062)
Hi Guys, obligatory I'm a coach not an official and I appreciate all that you guys do. I can not find my rulebook this morning so just want to come to the source. High School boys, player on opposing team receives a tech late in the game last night. I go to sub my best free throw shooter to shoot the free throws and official says I have to choose from someone who was on the floor at the time. It worked out great actually and one of my kids who rarely scores got to shoot them but am I just so tired that I'm totally wrong on this? Can't anyone on the bench or floor shoot those free throws?

Thanks for what you guys do and I apologize for myself and my fellow coaches, you guys do great things for kids.

You were right. Anyone can sub in to shoot a Tech FT, unless you had just subbed that player out, as they must sit until the clock legally starts before they are allowed back in.

Raymond Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:29am

Anybody can shoot. See Rule 8, Section 3.

I want to say that a different player may each free throw if so desired, but I can't find anything on that in the rule or case books.

sdoebler Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:45am

Piggy back side question, when they sub in someone to shoot the free throws for the T do you beckon in all subs waiting at this time?

bob jenkins Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1016069)
Anybody can shoot. See Rule 8, Section 5.

I want to say that a different player may each free throw if so desired, but I can't find anything on that in the rule or case books.

8-3. Note the specific word "thrower(s)"

Raymond Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1016080)
Piggy back side question, when they sub in someone to shoot the free throws for the T do you beckon in all subs waiting at this time?

I would/do.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1016066)
You were right. Anyone can sub in to shoot a Tech FT, unless you had just subbed that player out, as they must sit until the clock legally starts before they are allowed back in.


Frezer11:

I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.


NFHS R8-S3:
The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).


NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4:
Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.


NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3:
Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws.


I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct.

A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs.

You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment?

Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified.

For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents.

Let the debate begin.

MTD, Sr.

crosscountry55 Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1016069)
I want to say that a different player may each free throw if so desired, but I can't find anything on that in the rule or case books.


Correct in NFHS. Might come in handy if you’ve got a few bench warmers in a game that’s not close who otherwise never get to shoot a FT. I’ve never seen it actually employed, however. I don’t think most coaches know (or care) that you could do this.

In NCAA (M at least, I think both), same player must shoot both (if two awarded) for each TF.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bucky Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1016091)
Frezer11:

I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.


NFHS R8-S3:
The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).


NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4:
Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.


NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3:
Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws.


I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct.

A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs.

You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment?

Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified.

For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents.

Let the debate begin.

MTD, Sr.

NFHS case 8.2 Sit A: (2 separate shooters for TF FT's is legal)

NFHS case 8.3 Sit: (gotta sit a tick)

frezer11 Thu Feb 01, 2018 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1016091)
Frezer11:

I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.


NFHS R8-S3:
The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).


NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4:
Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.


NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3:
Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws.


I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct.

A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs.

You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment?

Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified.

For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents.

Let the debate begin.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, I actually agree with you, and would have a hard time if presented this situation in a game, not allowing the substituted player attempt those FTs. I just know we had a discussion within the last couple weeks on this forum about allowing a substituted player to come back to shoot these, and the general consensus was that they should not be allowed:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...k-does-he.html

Nevadaref Thu Feb 01, 2018 03:09pm

Sorry, MTD, but that is not allowed.
Substitution rules need to be enforced. At that time the team member is not an eligible substitute.

billyu2 Thu Feb 01, 2018 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1016130)
Sorry, MTD, but that is not allowed.
Substitution rules need to be enforced. At that time the team member is not an eligible substitute.

That is correct. The player is not eligible to return to shoot the free throws. However, if he is erroneously allowed to return and shoot he becomes a legal player and the results of the free throws stand and is not correctable. See Illegal Entry 3.3.3 Situation B.

BillyMac Thu Feb 01, 2018 05:39pm

Please Reconsider ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1016091)
Frezer11:I have officiated for 47 years now, and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) had this situation happen in any of my games nor I have ever thought of that situation.
NFHS R8-S3:
The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free *thrower(s).
NCAA Men's R8-S3-A4:
Technical fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall shoot both free throws.
NCAA Women's R8-S3-A3:
Technical, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls—The free throws awarded because of any technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying foul may be attempted by any player or eligible team member on the offended team, who shall be designated by the head coach or captain of the offended team. However, the same player shall attempt both free throws. I think that how we define an eligible substitute or eligible team member would determine whether your interpretation is correct or not, AND I am NOT saying it is not correct. A case in point is who can attempt TF FTs for TFs committed before the Jump Ball to start the game. Several years ago the NFHS issued a Casebook Play allowing a non-starter to attempt the FTs. I am not surprised at that ruling because the late Dick Schindler had expressed his opinion many many years earlier that for all intents and purposes, when a TF has been committed before the Jump Ball to start the game, the TF is in reality, the start of the game, and therefore anyone including an eligible substitute can attempt the TF FTs. You situation is a new spin on what is an eligible substitute? Does eligible mean a substitute that has not been Disqualified or does it mean any non-Disqualified substitute that, per Rule, can re-enter that game at that moment? Dick Schindler and later the NFHS Casebook Play took a very expansive definition of eligible, taking the position that any means just that: ANY! As long as they are not Disqualified. For those who are wondering, I am inclined to apply the NFHS expansive position from its pre-game Casebook Play and allow a player who has just been removed from the game via substitution to return to attempt the FTs. Just my two cents. Let the debate begin.MTD, Sr.

We've got Welpe to thank for this. I don't remember a Forum vote to rescind Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s ban from the Forum. Maybe Welpe should reconsider his decision?

justacoach Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1016069)
Anybody can shoot. See Rule 8, Section 5.

I want to say that a different player may each free throw if so desired, but I can't find anything on that in the rule or case books.

Here is the appropriate passage from NFHS Rules Book from 2010-2011. Rule 8-3 in that book.

The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower(s).

I don't think this citation has materially changed over the years,
The (s) seals the deal, at least for me

Sorry, late to the party. I think Nevadaref is correctly applying the proper interp based on the affirmative mention of ELIGIBLE substitute.

Camron Rust Fri Feb 02, 2018 01:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 1016161)
Here is the appropriate passage from NFHS Rules Book from 2010-2011. Rule 8-3 in that book.

The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower(s).

I don't think this citation has materially changed over the years,
The (s) seals the deal, at least for me

Sorry, late to the party. I think Nevadaref is correctly applying the proper interp based on the affirmative mention of ELIGIBLE substitute.

Exactly. This statement doesn't erase other rules. It is just saying subs that could otherwise come in can take the FTs.

Just to add another point to this interpretation....what if the player the coach wanted to designate to take the FTs was coming off the bench and had purple and orange striped tights on, big hoop earrings, an untucked shirt, and an and the likeness of MTD, Sr. tattooed on his bicep? Would you let that player shoot the FTs or would you send them back for being improperly equipped (for the tattoo, of course)?


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