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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 10:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packersowner View Post
If schools are using an iPAD to keep stats on, I would hope they have downloaded the NFHS app with the rule book. Pretty easy to find the rules with a quick search.

So if I'm a coach, what prevents me from "protesting" to create an extra long time out? I take 5 minutes with my team while an assistant "looks for the rule book" and then say "sorry, you're right, my bad."

What a stupid rule. I wonder who's ox got gored to create that nonsense.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I can understand the frustration, but the conclusion (lost BECAUSE the rule was misapplied) is not valid. The game was lost because of ALL the events of the game (including the rule issue).
BS. In progress bad calls can be overcome. Last play bad calls cannot.

All the events leading up to it had the team winning the game. They earned it. Lost on the bad call.

All the events leading up to what should have been the last out gave the pitcher a perfect game. He earned it. Lost it on a bad call.

Lost an OT basketball game in HS because the timer delayed starting the clock.

Replay is there for a reason. Protests are there for a reason.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 11:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
BS. In progress bad calls can be overcome. Last play bad calls cannot.

All the events leading up to it had the team winning the game. They earned it. Lost on the bad call.

All the events leading up to what should have been the last out gave the pitcher a perfect game. He earned it. Lost it on a bad call.

Lost an OT basketball game in HS because the timer delayed starting the clock.

Replay is there for a reason. Protests are there for a reason.
NAH. All of the above are what people cry about because:

1. it's the last thing that happens and is therefore the easiest thing to remember about the game.
2. fans and coaches would rather scapegoat than truly identify the myriad of reasons that led them to the point that one single thing toppled their precariously built house of cards
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
BS. In progress bad calls can be overcome
This logic is flawed. Just like an "in progress bad call" can be overcome, the team could have scored more points during the 32 minutes, so that the game was not so close at the end. Baskets scored in any of the 1,920 seconds are equally important. And if a bad call does occur, it doesn't matter when it occurs.

As Bob said, it is "ALL the events of the game" that determine the winner.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 12:18pm
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Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
This logic is flawed. Just like an "in progress bad call" can be overcome, the team could have scored more points during the 32 minutes, so that the game was not so close at the end. Baskets scored in any of the 1,920 seconds are equally important. And if a bad call does occur, it doesn't matter when it occurs.

As Bob said, it is "ALL the events of the game" that determine the winner.
This is a great way for referees (and players) to feel better. But there is a difference. On a call that happens in the first half (or a shot that is missed), even if it is a close game, it is never possible to say with certainty "but for that missed call [or shot] we would have won the game," as the events that followed would have been different if the score were different, etc.

But when the mistake by the referee (or player) happens at or about the buzzer, we do know that but for that mistake, the outcome would have been different. Of course, and perhaps really the point you were making, that doesn't mean that mistake (by player or referee) was the sole cause of the end result, but it definitely changed the result.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for the "refs cost us the game," because as noted there are a zillion events that went into the result. (And I've seen very, very few games where that is a fair statement--not zero, but very, very few.) And I agree that, in most games, the mistakes by the referees roughly balance out over the course of a game (and if not a game, a season). But that doesn't mean that a referee mistake at the end of a game didn't change the result of a game.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 12:24pm
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Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for the "refs cost us the game," because as noted there are a zillion events that went into the result. (And I've seen very, very few games where that is a fair statement--not zero, but very, very few.) And I agree that, in most games, the mistakes by the referees roughly balance out over the course of a game (and if not a game, a season). But that doesn't mean that a referee mistake at the end of a game didn't change the result of a game.
I don't think that he is arguing that a mistake by the official(s) could have changed the outcome of the game. I think the point is that mistakes by a player, team, coach, or official throughout the course of the game can have an effect on the outcome. You shouldn't get to pinpoint one of infinite possibilities because it happens at the end of the game.

That is a bit like viewing video from a play and saying it would be a foul in the first minute of a game but not the last. That is not how officiating or rules work.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 12:50pm
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Team B leading, 50-49. A1 goes for a layup, and as the ball is in the air, the final buzzer sounds, the ball enters the basket, and airborne A1 and B1 collide. If you call charge, B wins. If you call a block or no-call, A wins. There are some here saying that your call determines the outcome. And I say….how can we ignore the other 99 points? (and missed shots, violations, etc…..)
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 01:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Team B leading, 50-49. A1 goes for a layup, and as the ball is in the air, the final buzzer sounds, the ball enters the basket, and airborne A1 and B1 collide. If you call charge, B wins. If you call a block or no-call, A wins. There are some here saying that your call determines the outcome. And I say….how can we ignore the other 99 points? (and missed shots, violations, etc…..)
Correct me if I am wrong but this would be a no call. I don't believe that you can have a common foul after the buzzer/time expiration.

Last edited by sdoebler; Mon Jan 29, 2018 at 01:19pm.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 01:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but this would be a no call. I don't believe that you can have a common foul after the buzzer/time expiration.
Does the expiration of time always cause the ball to become dead?

Also you need to read Rule 4-19-1.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but this would be a no call. I don't believe that you can have a common foul after the buzzer/time expiration.
You're wrong.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Does the expiration of time always cause the ball to become dead?

Also you need to read Rule 4-19-1.
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne
shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the
act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in
flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the
player’s hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is
clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the
player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.
d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.
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