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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 11:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I can understand the frustration, but the conclusion (lost BECAUSE the rule was misapplied) is not valid. The game was lost because of ALL the events of the game (including the rule issue).

And, that's a lesson that should be part of scholastic sports, imo. (And, yes, the officials involved should be reprimanded somehow as well)
This is the position I've taken for years since I joined the officiating fraternity almost 15 years ago. The action of one, i.e. the crew, was not the only factor that determined the final outcome. What happened in the previous 31:59 cannot be discounted. All participants in the game are accountable.

Family and friends that ask for my take on game situations and calls are put off by it, but so be it.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 11:58am
Often wrong never n doubt
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
What percentage of your coaches A) know this rule? B) Can find their rule book in 10 minutes?

c. Following this notification of protest, the head coach shall be allowed approximately ten minutes to use his/her National Federation Rules Book, National Federation Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcements and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual to locate and show the game official(s) the appropriate rule reference which clarifies a misapplication of the game rule.
I would say 10% or less. My buddy who is the Coach at the school where I teach has used this successfully in the past.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:06pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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How does the MO rule work? I assume the coach has an underling retrieve the rulebook and look through the book so he/she can continue coaching.

But what does the coach then do? Go to the table, similar to a CE? If the coach is correct, how is the error addressed? And what happens to all the 10 minutes of intervening activity? I assume that none of this is "undone," even if the result of the incorrect ruling. If the coach is wrong, is a TO charged?

Wow.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
How does the MO rule work? I assume the coach has an underling retrieve the rulebook and look through the book so he/she can continue coaching.

But what does the coach then do? Go to the table, similar to a CE? If the coach is correct, how is the error addressed? And what happens to all the 10 minutes of intervening activity? I assume that none of this is "undone," even if the result of the incorrect ruling. If the coach is wrong, is a TO charged?

Wow.
The ball is not in play during this 10 minute interval
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:14pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
The ball is not in play during this 10 minute interval
You mean everything comes to a halt? For (possibly) ten minutes? What are the players allowed to do? I know Missouri is The Show Me State, but....
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:18pm
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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
You mean everything comes to a halt? For (possibly) ten minutes? What are the players allowed to do? I know Missouri is The Show Me State, but....
Correct. Teams go to their benches.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sj View Post
If Collins Hills scores and wins it would seem that Discovery could file a protest with the GHSA saying that based on the GHSA constitution the original outcome should not have been subject to a protest. That would be an interesting response to see.

http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp...ictures-40.jpg
If Collin Hills scores, they'll have won both the original game and the 1 second replay. That seems fairly unlikely given 1 second remaining on the clock. (One wonders if the tenths were available and known as well). I think you mean if they Collin Hills doesn't score, they could protest that the first protest wasn't allowed. And I agree it would be utterly comical if a different appeals board upheld that appeal.
Assuming Collin Hills is in the bonus, one wonders if the slightest contact might not result in them getting free throws anyway

I'm torn on this subject and would love to hear reasoned thought on it as I think there are good arguments on both sides of this debate. Sure it opens up an utterly unresolvable Pandora's box of questions as to what to do when this happens if you don't keep the game final, so my instinct is to say that the rule that games are final is best. But is there any line at which you'd acknowledge the officiating was so bad that we shouldn't take their final decision. Consider this case for example. With .3 on the clock and Team A down by 5, the ball is inbounded touched, deflected around but the clock doesn't start. A1 grabs the loose ball thinking the game is over and runs into a half court heave for the basket. B1 running toward his team bench celebrating trips A1 on his way back to the ground. The officials deem the A1's shot counts since the clock didn't start but that time has now run out. They determine that B1's foul is a DBCT because the clock should have run out and award 2 free throws for the technical plus one for committing a technical on a shot. A1 sinks all three free throws to win. The result of the game determines who gets into the State Tournament. It comes out after the game that one of the referees had a personal issue with one of the coaches.
What about the same but they are down 7 and they give the coach a technical for saying "what?" loudly when he sees how this goes down.

Or how about this one, with 1 minute left and team A up by 23 points the referee announces "next shot wins." Team B scores 22 seconds later. The referee tells the scorer to give them 24 points and to sound the final horn and the referees leave.

But if you accept any of my utterly Third World Absurdities are enough to trigger doing something then this is merely a line drawing conversation about where to make the cutoff and not the hard and fast rule suggested by the book. And if you don't accept the last one, I'm tempted to question whether you have enough sense of fair play.
I know this seems black and white to many of you but I think it's more nuanced than you're acknowledging. I think the answer may turn on keeping the result unless it's absurd, but Discovery would certainly argue that giving them a technical foul for punching the ball out of bounds was an absurd way to end a game.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 27, 2018, 09:46am
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This happened here. Game ends in a tie and the player who tried to drive to win go and chest pumps the Lead and F bombs him. Technical foul. They misapply the rule and the T is shoot in regulation and its game over. If the coach told the state we should have had over time would you guys be upset that they had an OT at a later date.

In my opinion a misapplication like this at the end of the game is something that should be redone when the final mispplication affects only the end of the game. Not the 1st quarter.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 27, 2018, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
This happened here. Game ends in a tie and the player who tried to drive to win go and chest pumps the Lead and F bombs him. Technical foul. They misapply the rule and the T is shoot in regulation and its game over. If the coach told the state we should have had over time would you guys be upset that they had an OT at a later date.

In my opinion a misapplication like this at the end of the game is something that should be redone when the final mispplication affects only the end of the game. Not the 1st quarter.
The problem is that the rules don't support allowing a protest.

Additionally, the GHSA last spring overturned an umpire's judgment call despite the obvious rule preventing that. They denied the protest of a judgment call in a football game this fall. They just seem to do whatever feels good at the time with no thought to the rules or consistency.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 27, 2018, 01:31pm
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Originally Posted by FormerUmp View Post
The problem is that the rules don't support allowing a protest.

Additionally, the GHSA last spring overturned an umpire's judgment call despite the obvious rule preventing that. They denied the protest of a judgment call in a football game this fall. They just seem to do whatever feels good at the time with no thought to the rules or consistency.
You know, if I'm Collins Hill and I'm feeling frisky, I could easily file suit to stay the GSHA's decision based on the disregard for their own bylaws. And I'd probably eventually win the case.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 28, 2018, 10:36pm
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Collins Hill wins big, loses replay of Saturday's game vs. Discovery | Sports | gwinnettprepsports.com

Discovery won the one second continuation, but Collins Hill won the rematch.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 28, 2018, 11:45pm
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Originally Posted by voiceoflg View Post
Collins Hill wins big, loses replay of Saturday's game vs. Discovery | Sports | gwinnettprepsports.com

Discovery won the one second continuation, but Collins Hill won the rematch.
I wonder why they played the regularly scheduled game first, and then the replay? Seems logical that they should have done the 1 second thing first, and then played a full game.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 08:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerUmp View Post
The problem is that the rules don't support allowing a protest.

Additionally, the GHSA last spring overturned an umpire's judgment call despite the obvious rule preventing that. They denied the protest of a judgment call in a football game this fall. They just seem to do whatever feels good at the time with no thought to the rules or consistency.
Isn't this the same organization that played its State Championship games with the baskets positioned incorrectly a couple of years ago?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Isn't this the same organization that played its State Championship games with the baskets positioned incorrectly a couple of years ago?
Good Memory.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...n-baskets.html
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
What percentage of your coaches A) know this rule? B) Can find their rule book in 10 minutes?

c. Following this notification of protest, the head coach shall be allowed approximately ten minutes to use his/her National Federation Rules Book, National Federation Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcements and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual to locate and show the game official(s) the appropriate rule reference which clarifies a misapplication of the game rule.

If schools are using an iPAD to keep stats on, I would hope they have downloaded the NFHS app with the rule book. Pretty easy to find the rules with a quick search.
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