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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:37pm
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Duke @ BC play at end of the game

Here is the play:



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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:38pm
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Good call and I hope it will lead to more such calls so we have fewer such plays.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 05:30pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Good call and I hope it will lead to more such calls so we have fewer such plays.
Doesn't get more obvious than that. Silly freshmen.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 05:33pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Good call and I hope it will lead to more such calls so we have fewer such plays.
You do have to admit there was a lot of flailing and acting going on. You'd think we were watching soccer. If not for being the end of the game, I don't think I'd have anything more than a common foul on that. Basic grab of a cutter anytime else.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:17pm
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The call as it stands is a good one. Jersey grab, late game. Iím ok with that call every time.

If there is a problem, it is with the previous attempts to foul and playing on. Duke is clearly chasing the ball down to foul,while attempting to be making a basketball play. After multiple slaps at th3 ball leadin* to arm and body contact, The only whistle they can get us on the non basketball play leading to the FF. The intent of the rule requiring defense to make a basketball play needs to be put in the context of the offense making basketball plays. Dribbling away from players with no intent to attack basket and now no one being able to foul you because you are dribbling at speed in wrong directions so they canít make a legitimate play on the ball is not the spirit of the rule either. Making the defense commit a game like foul while offense is no longer playing game like basketball seems like a burden. If offense is not moving forward and trying to score, regular advantage disadvantage cannot be the standard because nothing short of excessive non basketball contact is going to eliminate their ability to dribble away with their back turned. Everyone knows whatís going on, If defense makes the attempt within the guidelines just put a quick whistle on it and move on.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
The call as it stands is a good one. Jersey grab, late game. Iím ok with that call every time.

If there is a problem, it is with the previous attempts to foul and playing on. Duke is clearly chasing the ball down to foul,while attempting to be making a basketball play. After multiple slaps at th3 ball leadin* to arm and body contact, The only whistle they can get us on the non basketball play leading to the FF. The intent of the rule requiring defense to make a basketball play needs to be put in the context of the offense making basketball plays. Dribbling away from players with no intent to attack basket and now no one being able to foul you because you are dribbling at speed in wrong directions so they canít make a legitimate play on the ball is not the spirit of the rule either. Making the defense commit a game like foul while offense is no longer playing game like basketball seems like a burden. If offense is not moving forward and trying to score, regular advantage disadvantage cannot be the standard because nothing short of excessive non basketball contact is going to eliminate their ability to dribble away with their back turned. Everyone knows whatís going on, If defense makes the attempt within the guidelines just put a quick whistle on it and move on.
None of those things actually affected the dribbler, so there's no foul to call, IMO. If the offense was just standing still waiting to be fouled, call it and give both teams what they want. But Duke couldn't catch the kid, so I'm not going to give them a gift-wrapped foul call.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:52pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
None of those things actually affected the dribbler, so there's no foul to call, IMO. If the offense was just standing still waiting to be fouled, call it and give both teams what they want. But Duke couldn't catch the kid, so I'm not going to give them a gift-wrapped foul call.
Fair but how do you make a regular basketball play that disadvantages someone who doesnít want to go to basket, wants to burn clock, plays with back to rim and wants to play through slaps? Only way to catch rim and get to ball will not look like a basketball play. IMO intent of rule was not to allow teams to run out clock by playing keep away and running away from defense.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:26pm
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Fair but how do you make a regular basketball play that disadvantages someone who doesnít want to go to basket, wants to burn clock, plays with back to rim and wants to play through slaps? Only way to catch rim and get to ball will not look like a basketball play. IMO intent of rule was not to allow teams to run out clock by playing keep away and running away from defense.
They could, gasp, actually go hard for the ball. If they're not good enough to foul a dribbler, that is on them.

As for playing keep away, that is what the shot clock is for. They only have 30 seconds to use if they want it. They don't have a full half to use like some teams would do in the past.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:56pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They could, gasp, actually go hard for the ball. If they're not good enough to foul a dribbler, that is on them.

As for playing keep away, that is what the shot clock is for. They only have 30 seconds to use if they want it. They don't have a full half to use like some teams would do in the past.
I agree just find it interesting.

POE this year in FIBA is calling unsportsmanlike fouls when teams do not make a play on the ball to commit fouls.

In my mind I struggle with, if a player can turn their back and move away from me and how can defense commit a foul that is a play on the ball that disadvantages them without blatantly taking out their body or wrapping them up.

If the standard is you have to foul making a basket play on ball but the offensive player is now not making basketball plays what does d do?
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:54pm
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
I agree just find it interesting.

POE this year in FIBA is calling unsportsmanlike fouls when teams do not make a play on the ball to commit fouls.

In my mind I struggle with, if a player can turn their back and move away from me and how can defense commit a foul that is a play on the ball that disadvantages them without blatantly taking out their body or wrapping them up.

If the standard is you have to foul making a basket play on ball but the offensive player is now not making basketball plays what does d do?
Why do you struggle with the fact that a player on defense from the team which is trailing has difficulty doing something which is illegal in order to attempt to gain an advantage or a favorable outcome for his team (stop the clock/make the opponent make FTs)?

Here's an idea--play better earlier and don't be behind late in the game.

My opinion is that the team which is leading should have the benefit late in the game. Why? Because they've earned it.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:57pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Why do you struggle with the fact that a player on defense from the team which is trailing has difficulty doing something which is illegal in order to attempt to gain an advantage or a favorable outcome for his team (stop the clock/make the opponent make FTs)?

Here's an idea--play better earlier and don't be behind late in the game.

My opinion is that the team which is leading should have the benefit late in the game. Why? Because they've earned it.
I agree with the distinguished gentleman from the land of silver.
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Old Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:00pm
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What about giving the dribbler props for being able to dribble fast and away from defenders instead of penalizing him and/or his teammates? That dribbler didn't break any rules, so why should we give the defense any leeway here?

We always say "what did the defender do wrong" in regards to block/charge calls. Perhaps asking "what did the offense do wrong to not get a FF call here?"

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Old Mon Dec 11, 2017, 05:30am
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Without prolonging the argument for its sake as I appear to be the only one on this side. My final two points/queries:

1) Despite Poeís and directives. Fouling at the end of the game is still a recognized and acceptable strategy. Is our interpretation now that we want this to be more difficult. That teams without dynamic guard play or some how athletically disadvantaged (canít keep up, canít reach ball, midgets vs giants) cannot use this strategy. My understanding is that we simply want d making basket ball plays not offense taking advantage of this to become difficult to foul.

2) I am ok with the BC pg and Duke players who have played high level basketball their whole life working it out and making players responsible. I donít ref those players. In games where we have been trying to discourage rough play and chaos letting a really quick kid fly randomly around the floor through wacking arms with kids desperate to find way to foul seems like a recipe for disaster.
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Old Mon Dec 11, 2017, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Without prolonging the argument for its sake as I appear to be the only one on this side. My final two points/queries:

1) Despite Poeís and directives. Fouling at the end of the game is still a recognized and acceptable strategy. Is our interpretation now that we want this to be more difficult. That teams without dynamic guard play or some how athletically disadvantaged (canít keep up, canít reach ball, midgets vs giants) cannot use this strategy. My understanding is that we simply want d making basket ball plays not offense taking advantage of this to become difficult to foul.

2) I am ok with the BC pg and Duke players who have played high level basketball their whole life working it out and making players responsible. I donít ref those players. In games where we have been trying to discourage rough play and chaos letting a really quick kid fly randomly around the floor through wacking arms with kids desperate to find way to foul seems like a recipe for disaster.
So are you advocating that Hack-a-Shack should be acceptable in these situations?
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Old Mon Dec 11, 2017, 09:03am
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I still don't see why we should we help the defense.

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