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Legal Guarding Position + Wackiness
Another thread involving LGP and recent NFHS docs, got me thinking (uh oh!)
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Play 2: A1 and B2 have been defending each other the entire game. A1 scores a layup and his momentum carries him OOB. While OOB, he turns, steps IB, and begins to run back on defense. B1 secures the ball after the layup, goes OOB, and makes a throw-in to B2, who is IB. B2 quickly dribbles up the court and runs into A1 (back is to B2) from behind. Is it an automatic foul on A1 because A1 was not in a LGP as he was never facing his opponent? Silly, I know, but are these examples of loopholes in the wording used for LGP? Or, is there an obvious misinterpretation?
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If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist? |
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Bucky, you are severely over-thinking this LGP thing.
Without regard to LGP, each player is entitled to their spot, on the floor, provided they got that spot thru legal means. They can be facing any direction, jumping or waving to their mom in the stands, and cannot be illegally displaced from that spot. LGP just denotes the player has additional prerogatives to take actions, after having legally gained their spot. You may move sideways, obliquely or backwards and, only by moving forward the offensive player do you subject yourself to a foul. Burn this concept in your mind and you will always come up with the correct answer no matter how obtuse the situation. Applies to NFHS terps, ymmv as to NCAA and NBA
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Lah me.. (In honor of Jurassic Ref, R.I.P.) Last edited by justacoach; Mon Jun 05, 2017 at 01:05am. Reason: 2AM |
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There was an example of your Play 2 in the NFHS Simplified. & Illustrated book several years ago. I've cited it before on this forum. The ruling is a charging foul. The reason is that the defender is entitled to his spot on the floor.
The reason is the same for your Play 1. I do question the language of the POE in one aspect. It says that a defender may jump laterally to maintain LGP. I don't believe that is true. Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon Jun 05, 2017 at 03:14am. |
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LGP necessitates "guarding." "Standing there" or "being there" or "kneeling there", in fact (in NFHS, anyway), "lying there" isn't "guarding," is it?
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Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call |
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If you can move laterally and maintain LGP, why can't you jump laterally? As long as you're not going forward.
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Agree. It only depends on whether the defender maintained a position IN the path the entire time. If so, they can move sideways. Nothing specifies or limits how they are permitted to move sideways.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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Play 1 is ridiculous. If I see this at the varsity level and it was an accident I'm just going to blow the play dead and resume with the team having the right to run the endline. If the ball has been passed into play, I'm liable to just not have anything unless these 2 players escalate.
Play 2 is a foul on the ball handler. Everyone has a right to the spot on the floor that they occupy. LGP is NOT the only requirement for contact between a defender and offensive player for a foul to be called on the offense. LGP only has to do with block/charge call determination.
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in OS I trust |
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So, if Team A is entitled to run the end line, we are going to allow B1 to kneel down OOB and prevent A1 from running the end line? We are going to call that incidental contact if A1 trips over B1?
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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Peace
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A-hole formerly known as BNR |
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I'm not calling a foul unless one is necessary but then your options are not a common foul in this scenario. It's a real cluster @#$@.
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in OS I trust |
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I was having the player kneel simply as part of the story. He could very well have been standing but I wanted to give a reason for not exactly going IB immediately.
Indeed, most players won't stop and indeed, if they are kneeling, the inbounder isn't going to run into them and indeed it would happen at lower levels and indeed it would be handled accordingly and indeed.... Good points by all. If an inbounder intentionally ran into the kneeling/standing player, my gut would be a no-call or offensive foul, depending on actual actions.
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If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist? |
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