Legal Guarding Position

[The_Rookie]

Clarification needed..

The defender is considered to be in LGP BEFORE the shooter leaves the floor or when shooter starts to gather?

Is HS same as NCAA?

Thanks for the clarification....

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Clarification needed..

The defender is considered to be in LGP BEFORE the shooter leaves the floor or when shooter starts to gather?

Is HS same as NCAA?

Thanks for the clarification....

Good question!

NFHS: must have LGP before shooter leaves floor (4-23-4b)

NCAA: must have LGP before start of upward motion (Rule 4, Section 17, Article 4, d)

NBA: must have LGP before start of upward motion (Comments on the Rules, II, C)

[JRutledge]

It is almost the same.

The new rule to my understanding said the player must be in a LGP before the ball handler/shooter leaves the floor.

But I cannot find anything but press releases on the actual new language. It appears that the recommendation (before approval) originally said that the defender cannot move other than to jump vertically to block a shot.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Good question!

NFHS: must have LGP before shooter leaves floor (4-23-4b)

NCAA: must have LGP before start of upward motion (Rule 4, Section 17, Article 4, d)

NBA: must have LGP before start of upward motion (Comments on the Rules, II, C)

NCAA Rule change.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But I cannot find anything but press releases on the actual new language. It appears that the recommendation (before approval) originally said that the defender cannot move other than to jump vertically to block a shot.

This is irrelevant to OP's question. This deals with a change to the definition of LGP, not when LGP is required to have been established.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NCAA Rule change.

If you would find me a PDF with the new rule change I would happily recant my position

My copy of the 2014-2015 rules still has the "upward motion" language.

[APG]

Y'all need to make a distinction between NCAA-M and NCAA-W. NCAA-W requirements are the same as NFHS.

Originally Posted by APG

Y'all need to make a distinction between NCAA-M and NCAA-W. NCAA-W requirements are the same as NFHS.

Adam's wife has a saying when Adam starts getting picky about her words, "Don't make me connect the dots when you already know what the picture looks like."

We knew he meant NCAA-M based on the fact that he asked for the NCAA rule.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by AremRed

This is irrelevant to OP's question. This deals with a change to the definition of LGP, not when LGP is required to have been established.



If you would find me a PDF with the new rule change I would happily recant my position

My copy of the 2014-2015 rules still has the "upward motion" language.

I cant find a PDF. This is from Art Hyland power point on NCAA-M arbiter site. NCAA-M are going back to previous rule. LGP must be established before airborne, as was the case prior to last year. The reason your book still says upward motion is because it was printed last year. They only print new books every two years. The rule as written was a disaster last year, so they went back to the old way.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I cant find a PDF. This is from Art Hyland power point on NCAA-M arbiter site. NCAA-M are going back to previous rule. LGP must be established before airborne, as was the case prior to last year. The reason your book still says upward motion is because it was printed last year. They only print new books every two years. The rule as written was a disaster last year, so they went back to the old way.

Johnny D:

You are correct the rule change was a disaster because it was written who did not have a clue as to why the rule had been originally written over fifty years ago. The disaster of a new rule was written from a "fan boy's" perspective which is the perspective of many coaches at all levels.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

This is irrelevant to OP's question. This deals with a change to the definition of LGP, not when LGP is required to have been established.



If you would find me a PDF with the new rule change I would happily recant my position

My copy of the 2014-2015 rules still has the "upward motion" language.

It is not irrelevant. The rulebook is in a two year cycle of being published, so changes often are not going to reflect those changes immediately as they should. So it does matter if the rule was changed and the rule appears to be changed. When I first commented, I could not find any Arbiter evidence that the rule was changed, but pointed out by another poster it was there.

According to Art Hyland and his PowerPoint on Arbiter, the NCAAM went back to the old rule and changed what language is being used when the player goes airborne. Sorry if you were not aware of the rules going back to being changed and this is also why I stated what I did in the first place.

I had previously overlooked the Art Hyland PowerPoint, but here is the main point to the rules change. For some reason it is under last year's rules information, but no other rules video stuff is online yet (either NAIA or NCAA stuff)

Review committee actions for 2014-15:

Rule 4-17.4.d – Airborne shooter/passer-legal guarding position

1. Return to prior rule
2. Exception to requirements to establish initial legal guarding position
3. Must establish legal guarding position before player with ball leaves floor
4. Upward motion of arms no longer a determining factor
5. If defender establishes legal guarding position before shooter becomes airborne, defender may jump straight in the air or move backwards


Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

...

NCAA: must have LGP before start of upward motion (Rule 4, Section 17, Article 4, d)
...

Well, I have attended 2 NCAA-M's conference clinics so far, and I have access to NCAA-M's Arbiter, and I can assure you the rule has changed back to what it originally was. Gather/upward motion is no longer part of the rule. You will not be getting a PDF from me to prove it.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If you would find me a PDF with the new rule change I would happily recant my position

My copy of the 2014-2015 rules still has the "upward motion" language.

It is stated in the 2014-2015 Officiating Manual, section 2.5 "Block-Charge Rule". The defender must be in position before the airborne player leaves the floor to pass or shoot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

Clarification needed..

The defender is considered to be in LGP BEFORE the shooter leaves the floor or when shooter starts to gather?

Is HS same as NCAA?

Thanks for the clarification....

Just to clarify, no one requires LGP to be established prior to the shooter starting to "gather." The gather is not the same as the beginning of the upward motion: the gather often happens well before the start of the upward motion, in fact.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Adam's wife has a saying when Adam starts getting picky about her words, "Don't make me connect the dots when you already know what the picture looks like."

We knew he meant NCAA-M based on the fact that he asked for the NCAA rule.

Originally Posted by APG

Y'all need to make a distinction between NCAA-M and NCAA-W. NCAA-W requirements are the same as NFHS.

Thanks APG for pointing out that for the women who play at the college level and those of us who officiate their games - I think there are a few - it's the same as NFHS.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by AremRed

We knew he meant NCAA-M based on the fact that he asked for the NCAA rule.

No "we" didn't.