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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:23pm
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I hate to defend this ... as it's ridiculous, but you can have a hold (in basketball) without the player grasping with his fingers, can't you? Wouldn't putting your arms out and preventing a player from going past you be considered a hold ... without it being "grabbing"?

(I would note than in neither case ... grasping or not grasping, I would never call a normal hold as an intentional foul, as bucky suggests).
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
That is what I was thinking about your line of questioning, that you are trying to make some distinction. Not sure where you are going with it.

Anyway...

Yes, there is a distinction imo. I grab is a conscious closing of the hand around something, like a wrist, jersey, etc. It can't be accidental. Are all holds grabs? No. Are all grabs hold? Yes. Some holds are too difficult to consider intentional. If someone grabs a jersey though, then it seems obvious, not only what they were doing, but also there intent. Looks as if it comes down to semantics again. Shocker.

Just my opinion.
An example -

Player A1 is pinning down Player B1's arm in an attempt to rebound. You'd call it a hold, and it's a conscious decision to pin him down. You would call that intentional?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:33pm
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Bucky -
Seems to me that you're using the Webster definition of intentional, and not the rulebook definition.

Yes, if you grab something, you intended to do so. Doesn't make it an "intentional foul" as described in the rulebook.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I hate to defend this ... as it's ridiculous, but you can have a hold (in basketball) without the player grasping with his fingers, can't you? Wouldn't putting your arms out and preventing a player from going past you be considered a hold ... without it being "grabbing"?

(I would note than in neither case ... grasping or not grasping, I would never call a normal hold as an intentional foul, as bucky suggests).
I was thinking similarly.

I too would not call a "normal hold" intentional. Not sure where I suggested that but whateves.

And as far as "pinning" someone's arm, why do I need to call that a "hold"? Why not illegal use of hands? Or, by definition, go ahead and call hold, but that does not make it intentional.

Someone listed the definition of hold, which differs from that in basketball, at least NCCAM. Holding is simply interfering with freedom of movement, very similar to the definition of blocking. So, interfering with freedom of movement, looks to me to not necessarily involve grabbing.

And, yes MD, comes down to semantics. I feel it does fit as described in the rule book. Have to agree to disagree. Not sure why everyone is wasting time on this.
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Last edited by bucky; Wed Apr 05, 2017 at 01:40pm.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Why not illegal use of hands?
(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

Quote:
Not sure why everyone is wasting time on this.
Because you claimed that you would call a simple hold (if it included grasping) an Intentional Foul.

It's not.

Not even close, and not even if there is INTENT.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

Because you claimed that you would call a simple hold (if it included grasping) an Intentional Foul.

It's not.

Not even close, and not even if there is INTENT.
I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.
See posts 23 and 25 (and the posts just before that you were saying "Yes" to, to keep it in context).

(I'm not berating you.)
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 01:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Why not illegal use of hands?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)
You need to look a little harder....it is there.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 02:00pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You need to look a little harder....it is there.
4-24. Bucky you did say a grab would be an intentional foul. You may have meant something else but it is there. Having said that, we all know that most fouls committed are done on purpose if you look at a dictionary definition. Defender putting two hands on defender all way to hole is not an accident. Player shoves another from behind to get a rebound. That's on purpose/intentional but we dont call it that.

Just because there's a grab doesn't mean there's an intentional foul. I know you know that. i think we should move on to something else.

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Apr 05, 2017 at 02:04pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 02:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
That is what I was thinking about your line of questioning, that you are trying to make some distinction. Not sure where you are going with it.

Anyway...

Yes, there is a distinction imo. I grab is a conscious closing of the hand around something, like a wrist, jersey, etc. It can't be accidental. Are all holds grabs? No. Are all grabs hold? Yes. Some holds are too difficult to consider intentional. If someone grabs a jersey though, then it seems obvious, not only what they were doing, but also there intent. Looks as if it comes down to semantics again. Shocker.

Just my opinion.
Jerseys get grabbed accidentally all the time: more often than intentionally, IMO.

Defender reaches for the ball, trying to grab it, and misses. Whether he hits a jersey or a wrist, the natural instinct of the fingers is to grab. This is not an intentional act.

Many jersey grabs are certainly intentional: but not all. I'd say not even most.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 02:13pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Jerseys get grabbed accidentally all the time: more often than intentionally, IMO.

Defender reaches for the ball, trying to grab it, and misses. Whether he hits a jersey or a wrist, the natural instinct of the fingers is to grab. This is not an intentional act.

Many jersey grabs are certainly intentional: but not all. I'd say not even most.
I guess it depends on your definition. As i said above, i think most fouls are done purposely. Cited some examples. If you are going by me i might stick an arm out, if i then grab your jersey i think im doing it in desperation. I dont think its an accident. We dont call it an intentional foul all the time but i disagree that jersey grabs are more accidental than on purpose. Does a kid have a brain cramp and do it... yes. It's not intentional in basketball but i think it is under dictionary defintion.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 02:15pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I guess it depends on your definition. As i said above, i think most fouls are done purposely. Cited some examples. If you are going by me i might stick an arm out, if i then grab your jersey i think im doing it in desperation. I dont think its an accident. We dont call it an intentional foul all the time but i disagree that jersey grabs are more accidental than on purpose.
I don't think most fouls are done on purpose, I think they're done out of intentional negligence at most. I try to steal the ball or block a shot but know full well I may foul you in the process.
I reach out to slap the ball and hit your arm instead.

Arm bars and hand checks are different, but even then they tend to be instinctual (bad habits and poor coaching) rather than intentional.

I see your point, though, and think I'm picking nits.

Maybe we should call them "premeditated fouls" instead.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I don't think most fouls are done on purpose, I think they're done out of intentional negligence at most. I try to steal the ball or block a shot but know full well I may foul you in the process.
I reach out to slap the ball and hit your arm instead.

Arm bars and hand checks are different, but even then they tend to be instinctual (bad habits and poor coaching) rather than intentional.

I see your point, though, and think I'm picking nits.

Maybe we should call them "premeditated fouls" instead.
Lets just call it pornography...we know intentional when we see it. Just because A1 meant to whack B1 on the arm doesnt make it intentional. There is more than "intent" to be considered when calling intentional foul....". I have mentioned im a rocket scientist...yes?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.
Did you seriously just say that you were being berated? And you are the one who dragged out this subject, now you want to know why the subject is being dragged out.

It's interaction like this that makes one question whether someone is really an official or just a fan.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 05, 2017, 03:17pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
See posts 23 and 25 (and the posts just before that you were saying "Yes" to, to keep it in context).

(I'm not berating you.)
I checked posts 23 and 25. Could not find those words (claim, simple) in those posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Did you seriously just say that you were being berated? And you are the one who dragged out this subject, now you want to know why the subject is being dragged out.

It's interaction like this that makes one question whether someone is really an official or just a fan.
I do not feel that I dragged it out. I offered an opinion as a response (post 20). JAR offered a reply in post 21. Adam dragged it out, imo, with post 22 by asking a question. You are correct, it is interaction like this that makes me question whether someone is really an official or just a fan. I thought it was perfectly acceptable to offer opinions on plays, not criticize officials/crews. I offered my opinion and got criticized. So, yea, I'd call it berating given the words and length of time spent on it.

Gotta agree with BigCat, move on to something else.
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