Last Night

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you are going to discuss Flagrant 1 fouls, at least know the rule before saying the officials interjected themselves.

I would like to think I know the rule pretty well. Maybe I don't as I'm not a D1 official. Every time a flagrant is called, they put the rules on the screen on TV. If you want to go to the letter of the law, fine, call it. As we all know, you don't always officiate to the letter of the law/rule book and judgment comes into play. Sorry, I disagree with last night's flagrant ruling.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I would like to think I know the rule pretty well. Maybe I don't as I'm not a D1 official. Every time a flagrant is called, they put the rules on the screen on TV. If you want to go to the letter of the law, fine, call it. As we all know, you don't always officiate to the letter of the law/rule book and judgment comes into play. Sorry, I disagree with last night's flagrant ruling.

I don't let shots to the neck or face go unpunished. Doesn't matter if it was unintentional, most fouls are unintentional. We call fouls when someone accidentally shoves someone for a rebound or accidentally hits the shooter's arm, so why wouldn't we call a foul when someone accidentally grabs someone's face or neck?

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't let shots to the neck or face go unpunished. Doesn't matter if it was unintentional, most fouls are unintentional. We call fouls when someone accidentally shoves someone for a rebound or accidentally hits the shooter's arm, so why wouldn't we call a foul when someone accidentally grabs someone's face or neck?

That was very light contact on the face. I just don't think it was worthy of a Flagrant 1.

You call ALL contact to the neck and face as fouls or flagrants? I don't agree with that line of thinking.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

That was very light contact on the face. I just don't think it was worthy of a Flagrant 1.

You call ALL contact to the neck and face as fouls or flagrants? I don't agree with that line of thinking.

I think you need to look at the play again. He grabbed Berry's neck.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't let shots to the neck or face go unpunished. Doesn't matter if it was unintentional, most fouls are unintentional.

Saw one of my friends, a veteran, highly regarded, official, work a state tournament quarterfinal game. As a defender was reaching out to size up the opponent point guard, the defender accidentally brushed a few fingers across the point guards face. A split second went by (cue crickets). Point guard puts her hand up to her eye that was accidentally poked, in obvious pain. Only then came the whistle for the foul. I asked my friend about it afterward. He admitted that, at first, he was going to pass on the play as incidental contact, until he saw that the point guard was in pain. An advantage was certainly gained in that situation. Accidental and incidental don't mean the same thing.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Saw one of my friends, a veteran, highly regarded, official, work a state tournament quarterfinal game. As a defender was reaching out to size up the opponent point guard, the defender accidentally brushed a few fingers across the point guards face. A split second went by (cue crickets). Point guard puts her hand up to her eye that was accidentally poked, in obvious pain. Only then came the whistle for the foul. I asked my friend about it afterward. He admitted that, at first, he was going to pass on the play as incidental contact, until he saw that the point guard was in pain. An advantage was certainly gained in that situation. Accidental and incidental don't mean the same thing.

Your post is valid, but not similar to the play in question. The ball was dead when the contact in question occurred. No one was put at a disadvantage.

The rule is what it is, and I suppose it was properly enforced here, but in my opinion the rule was written more with aggressive elbow type action in mind, as opposed to the reactive, reflexive grab we saw here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Saw one of my friends, a veteran, highly regarded, official, work a state tournament quarterfinal game. As a defender was reaching out to size up the opponent point guard, the defender accidentally brushed a few fingers across the point guards face. A split second went by (cue crickets). Point guard puts her hand up to her eye that was accidentally poked, in obvious pain. Only then came the whistle for the foul. I asked my friend about it afterward. He admitted that, at first, he was going to pass on the play as incidental contact, until he saw that the point guard was in pain. An advantage was certainly gained in that situation. Accidental and incidental don't mean the same thing.

True, and I've handled that situation the exact same way. However, I've also seen an official just halt play for an injury stoppage without assessing a foul. In his mind the contact remained incidental and unworthy of a foul despite the injury. I think that this could be a reasonable debate, if people wish to discuss it.

[just another ref]

I think one reason that this is not called a foul is because it is so often that the contact is not seen, only the player reacting to the contact. The contact itself is so often brief and minimal, but can nonetheless be debilitating, not unlike a poke in the groin area.

Accidental or not, this is a foul.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

....so why wouldn't we call a foul when someone accidentally grabs someone's face or neck?

Seems like an oxymoron to me. Accidentally hit a face/neck? Yes, it is possible. Grab someone's face/neck? Must be intentional.

Maybe I am getting caught in semantics but just my opinion if going by literal words.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bucky

Seems like an oxymoron to me. Accidentally hit a face/neck? Yes, it is possible. Grab someone's face/neck? Must be intentional.

Maybe I am getting caught in semantics but just my opinion if going by literal words.

Don't overthink it. Just like in any other situation, on or off the court. You reach out to grab something, miss, and accidentally grab the wrong thing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bucky

Seems like an oxymoron to me. Accidentally hit a face/neck? Yes, it is possible. Grab someone's face/neck? Must be intentional.

Maybe I am getting caught in semantics but just my opinion if going by literal words.

So is every hold an intentional foul?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Adam

So is every hold an intentional foul?

Yes, presuming by "hold" you mean involving a grab.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

So is every hold an intentional foul?

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes, presuming by "hold" you mean involving a grab.

You really believe every hold is intentional? So every time you blow your whistle for a hold you rule it an intentional foul?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You really believe every hold is intentional? So every time you blow your whistle for a hold you rule it an intentional foul?

If the hold involved a grab, then yes.