NCAA Tournament (Elite 8 Games) Video Requests - Saturday and Sunday

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!

Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.

You are completely correct, thanks for pointing that out. I used that mostly to illustrate the "no one in the vicinity so it must be a dribble" idea. For true argument's sake, just have A2 catch the pass while grounded. Then have A2 jump in the air and throw the ball downcourt. Same thing, no ref is calling a travel when the ball hits the floor down court.

[Adam]

Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.

Agree.

[just another ref]

Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor.

Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are calling a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think so.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bucky

Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think.

A1 has used his dribble. He is guarded by B1. He give a head fake, puts the ball on the floor and breaks toward the basket. Ball hits the floor and is slapped out of bounds by B1.

What is your call?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.

Originally Posted by bucky

Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think.

You might want to avoid speaking for all officials for a while.

Whether you believe it or not: that's the rule and yes, quite a few high quality officials would certainly call it that way in limited circumstances. Normally, by the time we blow our whistle, the ball has already come up and touched the dribbler. The whole point here is that it's not required.

Before making that call, I'd have to be absolutely positive of the intent: any doubt at all and it's a pass until it comes back to touch the same player.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

Can't believe I read that. Completely false and no official in the world would call a violation when the ball hit the floor and the player did not touch it again.

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think.

If the player ends a dribble, forgets and then the next thing he does is push the ball down to the floor like a dribble we've all seen millions of times...then I can and have called it a violation before he touches it again. If the player does something with it that doesn't look like a dribble I've seen a million times(your bounce pass example) I will wait to see what happens. This is what just another is saying and it is correct.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bucky

Imagine, A1 holds the ball after dribbling, then makes a bounce pass to A2. You are calling a violation when the ball hits the floor? I don't think so.

At some point we have to make a judgement. We all know what a pass looks like and a dribble looks like. When the ball is released and pushed to the floor it is a violation. A pass and a start of the dribble are two very different things.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.

Absolutely correct...exactly what the rule defines as a dribble.