NCAA Tournament (Elite 8 Games) Video Requests - Saturday and Sunday

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

See what you are saying but don't quite agree. I feel that what comes after does determine everything. It can't be considered a dribble unless he is first to touch the ball after releasing it and it hitting the floor. Since defender was first to touch ball after it was released, there is nothing illegal about this play. We have all seen the case where a player jumps to shoot, is going to get blocked, and releases the ball to the floor as a dribble, as it comes back to his possession. Classic travel case. (always good entertainment to have this happen in a heated pick-up game and watch the argument unfold)

It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

[BillyMac]

A reference to Robert Frost on the Forum. Is this a first?

Starting a dribble ... illegal dribble ... Wait to see what happens next ... Don't have to wait to see what happens next ...

We've been down this road before. Same road. Same fork. It hasn't changed.

Maybe we can get Theresia Wynns to walk down this path with us. She'll know the right way.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!

All scenarios aside, the rule defines a dribble as a ball being pushed to the floor. Nothing about the dribble rule depends on what it touches next.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bucky

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

Please point us to these cases.

A2 ... heaves the ball down court... You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition,

This is not an extreme example... it's a false example. Go re-read the definition of DRIBBLE and explain how throwing the ball in this manner could possibly be construed as directing the ball toward the ground.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Please point us to these cases.
.

4.15.4C, 4.44.3(A), 9.5 all mention A1 being first to touch ball…
As Billy said, we have been down this road before. I have reconciled it by saying if what the player does looks and is a "dribble"…a straight push down of the ball right next to him…then I don't have to wait to see if he touches it first. That was a "dribble' that ive seen 8 gabillion times before. violation.

However, there are times when I do have to wait to see what happens next, who touches it, to determine if something was a dribble. I do not and never agree that you always determine dribble or pass at the moment something leaves players hand. Example, I end a dribble. Toss the ball toward Camron. It bounces but then he runs away. I then go touch ball first. That is double dribble because i touched it first. if the ball just sat there it would be nothing.

If I havnt dribbled yet and throw the same pass and then run over to get it it is also a dribble. Just because it was thrown towards Camron doesn't make it a pass by rule. It looked like one out of my hand but it isn't one by rule. I can go recover it legally because it was considered a dribble.

Anyway, i did not watch this video. if a player jumps up and on way down pushes ball straight to floor(a dribble we've all seen forever) i think we can call the violation without him being first to touch. If he simply lets go of the ball i'm going to wait to see what happens next.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

4.15.4C, 4.44.3(A), 9.5 all mention A1 being first to touch ball…

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

[BigCat]

Please. Put 4.44.3A(d) up. That's most similar. Thx

[bucky]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is not an extreme example... it's a false example. Go re-read the definition of DRIBBLE and explain how throwing the ball in this manner could possibly be construed as directing the ball toward the ground.

Why would I? I did not claim anything, Camron did.

"It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

I guarantee that no official on the planet would call a travel for my scenario.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!

Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.

You are completely correct, thanks for pointing that out. I used that mostly to illustrate the "no one in the vicinity so it must be a dribble" idea. For true argument's sake, just have A2 catch the pass while grounded. Then have A2 jump in the air and throw the ball downcourt. Same thing, no ref is calling a travel when the ball hits the floor down court.

[Adam]

Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Whether it's a dribble or a pass is judgment. As bob would say, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Most of the time, we wait until someone touches it before making that judgment, but by rule it's not required.

We're making this issue way too hard.

Agree.

[just another ref]

Another way to look at it: A pass cannot be a violation. If a player throws what starts out to be a pass, then goes and gets it himself, it can become a dribble, which may or may not be a violation, depending on whether his dribble is gone.

If a player has used his dribble, then forgets and pushes it to the floor in an apparent start to another dribble, it is a violation when it hits the floor. If he remembers and runs away from it at this point, it's still a violation.