Simultaneous common & intentional fouls

[Cadet]

Team A is in bonus
A1 is dribbling the ball and is blocked by B1 (common foul). A fraction of a second later (before the whistle blows), A1 extends an arm and pushes B1 hard to the ground (ruled intentional...not enough for flagrant).

What's the restart? Do we go with POI as we would with 2 common fouls, or go with the more severe foul / give 2 shots and the ball to B?

[crosscountry55]

By your description I believe this is a false double foul.

However, if you're going to call this a double foul, then I believe when they are of unequal severity as in your case, you report both, but resume with the administration for the more serious foul, as if the common foul had not occurred. In other words, two shots for B1 and ball to B nearest the spot of the foul.

Again, by your description, I'd be more apt to call a false double foul and administer penalties in the order in which the fouls occurred, keeping in mind that the second foul would be an intentional technical foul in that case.


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[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Cadet

Team A is in bonus
A1 is dribbling the ball and is blocked by B1 (common foul). A fraction of a second later (before the whistle blows), A1 extends an arm and pushes B1 hard to the ground (ruled intentional...not enough for flagrant).

What's the restart? Do we go with POI as we would with 2 common fouls, or go with the more severe foul / give 2 shots and the ball to B?

From your description one could say that this is a Double Foul. It does not matter that one foul is a Common Foul and the other is an Intentional Personal Foul, it is still a Double Foul. Both fouls are charged and play is resumed using the POI protocol which in this case a Designated Spot Throw-in by Team A nearest the spot of the Double Foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

The first two responders gave you the two choices.

1. Rule this a double-foul and resume at the POI without attempting any FTs. Doesn't matter that one foul was deemed intentional.

2. Rule that the second foul is intentional contact during a dead ball (technical foul) and penalize the fouls in the order in which they occurred. Bonus FTs for A1 with the lane cleared, followed by 2FTs for Team B and possession to Team B at the division line.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... and possession to Team B at the division line.

Good point Nevadaref. Not all intentional fouls are inbounded at the spot nearest the foul, i.e., intentional fouls during a dead ball (technical foul).

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2FTs for Team B

Also, as you pointed out, any member of Team B can shoot the technical foul free throws for the dead ball intentional foul (doesn't have to be the intentional foulee).

[deecee]

I would assess these separately. Common foul then dead ball contact T.

[Cadet]

Is it a dead ball foul if the whistle hasn't blown yet?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Cadet

Is it a dead ball foul if the whistle hasn't blown yet?

Ball is dead on the foul, the whistle may come after. This is just a very "odd" double foul. I would personally either have ignored the second contact or go with the T. A double foul is to be used when the contact is equal and at the same time as far as real life application is concerned. In a case where a kid goes to take a charge and its a block and the offensive player not only just knocked the kid down, but then shoves him.

The rule supports a double foul here I personally would go with one of the 2 options I provided.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Cadet

Is it a dead ball foul if the whistle hasn't blown yet?

Yes, the whistle isn't what makes the ball dead. The foul or violation does that. This is noted as one of the twenty rules fundamentals in the NFHS rules book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...


Also, as you pointed out, any member of Team B can shoot the technical foul free throws for the dead ball intentional foul (doesn't have to be the intentional foulee).

Dead ball intentional foul? That's a thing now?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Dead ball intentional foul? That's a thing now?

While the correct term is "Intentional Technical Foul" what billy wrote also seems to me to be a correct description.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cadet

Is it a dead ball foul if the whistle hasn't blown yet?

There are plenty of dead balls throughout a game without a whistle at all. In some games, it may be the majority of dead balls.

Most of the rest occur demonstrably before any whistle that acknowledges them (fouls, violations, held balls).

Only a select few times does the whistle actually make the ball dead. Mainly inadvertent whistles.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point Nevadaref. Not all intentional fouls are inbounded at the spot nearest the foul, i.e., intentional fouls during a dead ball (technical foul).



Also, as you pointed out, any member of Team B can shoot the technical foul free throws for the dead ball intentional foul (doesn't have to be the intentional foulee).

If I throw a punch during a dead ball at A12 and miss A13 can come in and shoot the T? I thought that technicals that anyone could shoot were like administrative or bench or HC T's...

Im a bit lost now.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigT

If I throw a punch during a dead ball at A12 and miss A13 can come in and shoot the T? I thought that technicals that anyone could shoot were like administrative or bench or HC T's...

Im a bit lost now.

In NFHS, any foul that is deemed a technical foul can be shot by any member of the other team. So, in your play, even if the punch lands, anyone can shoot it.

[deecee]

"Intentional" fouls are for live ball contact. The penalty is player that was fouled shoots the FT's and ball inbounded to the offended team at spot closest to the foul.

If the punch was landed during live ball action then Charlie that got clocked would shoot the FT's, assuming he can. Any other action AFTER the initial punch is dead ball activity and any player can shoot those FT's if there are any. However Charlie will need to "man" up, unless he's out cold then its understandable, and take his FT's.