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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 02:11am
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Inbounds pass muffed into backcourt

I thought I recalled seeing this discussed here previously, but I've searched and can't find it.


NFHS Rules

A1 is inbounding from the endline in his frontcourt. A2 is standing in the frontcourt near the division line. A2 jumps to catch the pass, and the ball goes off his fingertips and into the backcourt where A2 goes and retrieves it.

Is this a violation?? Please cite rules or casebook plays. I know the reason for the correct ruling should center around control.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 02:25am
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No violation. The infamous rule 9 section 9 Backcourt article 3.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 04:52am
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In order to have a backcourt violation, there have been player control inbounds. Until there is such, there is no team control (true team control). Without team control, there can be no backcourt violation.

See rule 4 and rule 9.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 07:18am
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Four Elements ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
In order to have a backcourt violation ...
The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes View Post
I thought I recalled seeing this discussed here previously, but I've searched and can't find it.
SITUATION 5: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2s hand and goes into Team As backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team As backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player and team control had not yet been established in Team As frontcourt before the ball went into Team As backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2d; 9-9)
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:58am
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Had this play last night:
Team A is in their front court and has a pass deflected by team B. The tipped pass is headed toward team A back court.
A2 jumps from front court and gains possession of the ball (in the air) and lands in teams A back court.
Trail calls over and back and team A's coach (who has been excellent) wants an explanation.
Partner explains; she left the air while still in her front court therefore she and the ball still had front court status.
I initially thought - he's right, but now I think WE got it wrong.
I'm thinking the tipped pass changes team control - therefore making A2 a defender - NFHS 9.9.3.
Am I thinking correctly here?


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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeyes View Post
Had this play last night:
Team A is in their front court and has a pass deflected by team B. The tipped pass is headed toward team A back court.
A2 jumps from front court and gains possession of the ball (in the air) and lands in teams A back court.
Trail calls over and back and team A's coach (who has been excellent) wants an explanation.
Partner explains; she left the air while still in her front court therefore she and the ball still had front court status.
I initially thought - he's right, but now I think WE got it wrong.
I'm thinking the tipped pass changes team control - therefore making A2 a defender - NFHS 9.9.3.
Am I thinking correctly here?


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Am I wrong in thinking in order to have TC, you must obtain possession?

Also, are you in the great (icy) state of Iowa as well?
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:09am
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Thanks for all the responses. Let me see if I understand this, after reading your responses as well as some additional rulebook and casebook reading.

In order for there to be a BC violation, there must first be PLAYER and TEAM Control established IN THE FRONTCOURT. Then, while TC exists in the FC, the offense must be last to touch in the FC and first to touch in the BC.

While there is TEAM CONTROL during a throw-in, and the throw-in occurs on the endline of Team A's frontcourt, this does not establish Frontcourt team control, as the area outside the boundary line is not considered part of the FC. The ball being tipped off the A2's hand as he jumped from the FC to catch the inbounds does not establish FC Team Control. Therefore, A2 can go retrieve the ball in the backcourt and there is no BC Violation.

Do I have this correct?
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:24am
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No, there need not be player control in the front court.

The best way to look at this is to consider the BC play as if there was no team control during a throw-in. In that case, someone in bounds must possess the ball in order to establish team control. From that point on, BC rules apply.

So, your play is not a violation because A2 did not catch the ball to establish TC in bounds.

One more correction on the first to touch portion: it's not first to touch in the BC, it's first to touch after the ball goes into the BC.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:59am
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*This email I recv'd from the State may clarify:

"The National Federation Office asked that we forward this message.

Much discussion is taking place in the various social media and other places about the follow situation.

Here is the play:

- Team A has Team Control in their frontcourt.

- Team B deflects a pass into the air and over the backcourt.

- A3 catches the ball in his/her backcourt, before the ball make contact with the floor in the backcourt.

RULING:

This is a backcourt violation, since Team A had Team Control in their frontcourt and A3 was the first to touch a ball that still had frontcourt status while A3 was in the backcourt. The deflection of the ball by B does not change the status of the ball. This causes A to be the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt and the first to touch in the backcourt. The ball continued to have backcourt status. Similar to A3 catching the ball while standing out-of-bounds."



"Allow me to remind you of a few things:

- We should all remain consistent in the mechanics of reporting fouls:

o Make your way to the reporting area in front of the scorer’s table. Don’t get in the habit of shouting from across the court or from a long distance."
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 12:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeyes View Post
Had this play last night:
Team A is in their front court and has a pass deflected by team B. The tipped pass is headed toward team A back court.
A2 jumps from front court and gains possession of the ball (in the air) and lands in teams A back court.
Trail calls over and back and team A's coach (who has been excellent) wants an explanation.
Partner explains; she left the air while still in her front court therefore she and the ball still had front court status.
I initially thought - he's right, but now I think WE got it wrong.
I'm thinking the tipped pass changes team control - therefore making A2 a defender - NFHS 9.9.3.
Am I thinking correctly here?


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B never held or dribbled the ball, so B never had TC. That means A never lost TC.

BC violation.

(and, this play should have gone to a different thread, imo -- it's just going to muddy the waters here as responses come in to the different plays)
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*This email I recv'd from the State may clarify:

"The National Federation Office asked that we forward this message.

Much discussion is taking place in the various social media and other places about the follow situation.

Here is the play:

- Team A has Team Control in their frontcourt.

- Team B deflects a pass into the air and over the backcourt.

- A3 catches the ball in his/her backcourt, before the ball make contact with the floor in the backcourt.

RULING:

This is a backcourt violation, since Team A had Team Control in their frontcourt and A3 was the first to touch a ball that still had frontcourt status while A3 was in the backcourt. The deflection of the ball by B does not change the status of the ball. This causes A to be the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt and the first to touch in the backcourt. The ball continued to have backcourt status. Similar to A3 catching the ball while standing out-of-bounds."



"Allow me to remind you of a few things:

- We should all remain consistent in the mechanics of reporting fouls:

o Make your way to the reporting area in front of the scorers table. Dont get in the habit of shouting from across the court or from a long distance."
1. This play isn't relevant to this discussion because the OP involves a throw in.

2. Even on the court, until they actually change the rule to match this distorted interpretation, I'm not going to see that play that well.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 03:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control
when coming from a throw-in); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must
be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after
the ball has been in the backcourt.

During a throwin, even under a teams own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations.
Not an official here, but have a couple questions.

If A1 is dribbling in the front court, but his foot steps on the division line, is that a violation?

If A1 is dribbling in the front court, but the ball touches the division line (half over), is that a violation?

If A1 is dribbling in the front court and the ball goes completely over the division line, but the player stays in the front court, is it a violation?
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
Not an official here, but have a couple questions.

If A1 is dribbling in the front court, but his foot steps on the division line, is that a violation?

If A1 is dribbling in the front court, but the ball touches the division line (half over), is that a violation?

If A1 is dribbling in the front court and the ball goes completely over the division line, but the player stays in the front court, is it a violation?
Yes, Yes and Yes.
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
If A1 is dribbling in the front court and the ball goes completely over the division line, but the player stays in the front court, is it a violation?
In the air, but doesn't touch the back court? Like player jumps from front court and while in air "saves" it, passing it to a teammate to the front court?
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