Disagreement with Crew Partner

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by wheels

This play is not incidental contact play. The defender beat her to the spot. so just because the ball handler wasn't strong enough to knock her down, it not a PC? but if she goes does it is?

There. I believe you've got it.

[Rich]

I think the problem is that people think that contact must be a foul -- that the foul is a reward somehow.

A foul is designed to penalize an unfair advantage. If you crash off me and fall to the floor, how am I placed at a disadvantage?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rich

I think the problem is that people think that contact must be a foul -- that the foul is a reward somehow.

A foul is designed to penalize an unfair advantage. If you crash off me and fall to the floor, how am I placed at a disadvantage?

Exactly. The job of the defense is to stop the offense from scoring, period. If the offense initiates contact that gives them an advantage or displaces the defense, then they've created an advantage that is supposed to be corrected with a foul call.

If the offense initiates contact that only disadvantages the offense, the defense hasn't suffered any injustice that needs corrected.

Next up in the response, the argument that the foul count should some how be considered, and getting closer to the bonus should be used as a rationale for calling the foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by wheels

So you are penalizing her for being a bigger player and not flopping.

No. We're rewarding her for doing her job of beating the offensive player to the spot to prevent a drive to the basket AND for causing the offensive player to travel.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I agree with going with the incorrect blocking call. Sometimes our partner(s) make bad calls, but we can't overrule them (well... for the most part)

I agree with this. Based on the play, the "foul" definitely came before the travel. Unless there is some local policy, Section 6 applies: "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

If your partner makes that call, you have to go with it as you have to go with it and assume that he saw something you didn't.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I agree with this. Based on the play, the "foul" definitely came before the travel. Unless there is some local policy, Section 6 applies: "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

If your partner makes that call, you have to go with it as you have to go with it and assume that he saw something you didn't.

Um ... except it's in YOUR area, and you determined NO foul ... going with his call, outside his primary would be him setting aside the decision made by you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Um ... except it's in YOUR area, and you determined NO foul ... going with his call, outside his primary would be him setting aside the decision made by you.

I agree. A no-call is actually a decision that the play was legal.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Um ... except it's in YOUR area, and you determined NO foul ... going with his call, outside his primary would be him setting aside the decision made by you.

The other night I made a bad call on a drive down the lane.

No jokes about me making a bad call... I know.

Anyway, the dribbler drove from my PCA as the center, and into the lane to attempt a shot in front of the lead. I saw the defender swipe at the ball, and I called a foul. Bad call, as I didn't actually see the contact due to being straightlined. I reacted too quickly and made an assumption.

As soon as I made the call I looked at my partner after realizing I shouldn't have made the call, and he had a look on his face that told me the defender never made contact with the dribbler/shooter.

Now... the play happened in his PCA, and he knew that I had made a bad call. So, going by what you just said, should he have overruled my call?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Now... the play happened in his PCA, and he knew that I had made a bad call. So, going by what you just said, should he have overruled my call?

Probably not unless it's a game-saver.

But you've just made my point, not disproved it.

In the OP, his partner (erroneously) rushed in to overrule him after he correctly ruled no-foul and then a travel. His partner should not have tried to overrule him.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Probably not unless it's a game-saver.

But you've just made my point, not disproved it.

In the OP, his partner (erroneously) rushed in to overrule him after he correctly ruled no-foul and then a travel. His partner should not have tried to overrule him.

I don't think I did prove your point. You agreed that just because it was in his PCA, and he didn't agree with my call, that he shouldn't overrule me unless it was a "game-saver". Yet you agree that in the OP he should have overruled his partners bad call.

BTW, I don't consider a no-call a call. There are plenty of times an official will pass on a call, only for a partner to take it.

I'm not saying his partner should have even tried to overrule him, but once he made it known that he had a foul before the travel (meaning it wasn't just brought up in a private conversation), then I'd go with it. And later on we'd have a chat about it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

BTW, I don't consider a no-call a call.

Now we're just into semantics. If you want to say the (non)foul in the OP is a no-call, you can. But the call was made. It was traveling, which was caused by the contact, which was judged not to be a foul. In my opinion if the partner comes in after the fact (which is what I'm picturing here) saying blocking foul and it happened first, he is indeed trying to "set aside a decision made by the other official," which he cannot do. 2-6

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Now we're just into semantics. If you want to say the (non)foul in the OP is a no-call, you can. But the call was made. It was traveling, which was caused by the contact, which was judged not to be a foul. In my opinion if the partner comes in after the fact (which is what I'm picturing here) saying blocking foul and it happened first, he is indeed trying to "set aside a decision made by the other official," which he cannot do. 2-6

My argument hinges on the "other" official making a call. If all he did is come in with information then I have no issues ignoring it. But if he blows his whistle, fist up for a foul, I'm not going to argue about who's PCA the play was in.

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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

My argument hinges on the "other" official making a call. If all he did is come in with information then I have no issues ignoring it. But if he blows his whistle, fist up for a foul, I'm not going to argue about who's PCA the play was in.

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The OP says there was a bounce, a fall, a travel call and then the other guy running in. If he would have run in and said, "no way, obvious no LGP...Everybody in gym knows it.." .maybe ok. If it's that obvious the official who called the travel may say, "you're right." The guy ran in though and didn't say those things. He said body on floor. Need to have foul. He should pound sand.

That isn't having a foul before the travel. Imo. And if anybody botched I'd say forcefully "it was my call and I made it." Blue ball etc

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The OP says there was a bounce, a fall, a travel call and then the other guy running in. If he would have run in and said, "no way, obvious no LGP...Everybody in gym knows it.." .maybe ok. If it's that obvious the official who called the travel may say, "you're right." The guy ran in though and didn't say those things. He said body on floor. Need to have foul. He should pound sand.

That isn't having a foul before the travel. Imo

Sorry, but I'm not talking directly about the OP. I'm on my phone and don't want to go back and see how it started, but the conversation I've been taking part in here goes beyond that specific scenario and delves into similar situations.

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[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Sorry, but I'm not talking directly about the OP. I'm on my phone and don't want to go back and see how it started, but the conversation I've been taking part in here goes beyond that specific scenario and delves into similar situations.

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Ok. Sorry. I took a shortcut and didn't read the middle pages...