Disagreement with Ref

[Schultj]

Last game I did, the QB handed the ball off on the first play of the game and the DE tackled him when I thought that it was obvious that he was out of the play. I had my flag out, but I didn't throw it because I thought that that should be the refs call not the wings, and I looked at him and he saw the hit but didn't throw the flag. Plus, I am relatively new, and the ref has been around for quite a while. Needless to say, this went on the whole game and the QB's coach was irrate. I asked the ref about it, and he said to let it go because the QB could potentially have the ball so the defense can tackle him. After this, the QB and his coach both got UC calls (the QB for swearing, the coach for his tyrade). Looking back on it, if I would have thrown that first flag, that could have prevented the whole situation. Any ideas on how to handle this in the future?

[MD Longhorn]

Not seeing the plays, it's tough to comment specifically...

But considering the ref was right there on it, and experienced enough to know what to do, he was probably right. The QB receives no extra protection after a handoff --- only after a pass. The QB is eligible to get the ball back. You probably wouldn't have the concern if the player was the RB - and in this case, they are equal.

If there seemed to be deliberate attempt to injure, or the ball was considerably far from the QB when the hit occurred, it might be different - again - tough to say without actually seeing it.

Did anyone suggest that they might try to block the DE? Hmm, no - that probably wouldn't have gone over well, I suppose.

[cmathews]

I agree in part with mbcrowder...in a case where the call is out of your area, and the guy whos call it is has more experience, it is pretty tough not to defer to him....but also without seeing the play it is hard to say also how far out of the play he was....but the combination of the guy wearing the white hat, being right there, with more experience....keep it in your pocket, and at an opportune time and place discuss with him why he let it go, and why you were concerned....

[cdnRef]

Schultj,

Use this as a learning opportunity. If your HR is really experienced then he probably has some key or something that he uses to judge what he's going to do. Ask about it. The only way you're going to learn is to go and find out.

The QB is also an elgible blocker after the ball goes so there could be defensive holding too depending on what's happening. When I get to play in the white hat I count a full second before even thinking about a flag on those plays (er...I say 'Saskatchewan' slowly but whatever). If the DE is still holding on and the play is long gone I tell him to let go...

You really shouldn't have seen that though - your key should have been on the ball carrier - get your hand in the air so your HR knows you've got the carrier and he can focus on cleanup behind the play (or are we the only association using that mechanic??).

Also, think back on that play...there wasn't a forward handoff was there?

[c it first]

I understand the temptation but keep the flag in your pocket. Pulling the flag out and not throwing it will only magnify your indecision and give a coach fuel to ask you why you didn't flag the other team. Coaches get caught up in the game and look for any edge. If you see it , really see it , then flag it. However - I worked a Jr. High game as HL and the LJ was calling false starts on wideouts on my side. Yeah ,there was slight body movement but I relax a little for the jr.'s . I wasn't happy with the LJ infringing on my territory.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Schultj
Last game I did, the QB handed the ball off on the first play of the game and the DE tackled him when I thought that it was obvious that he was out of the play. I had my flag out, but I didn't throw it because I thought that that should be the refs call not the wings, and I looked at him and he saw the hit but didn't throw the flag...Looking back on it, if I would have thrown that first flag, that could have prevented the whole situation. Any ideas on how to handle this in the future?

I was the white hat last year for a similar play. The QB ran play action and a defender tackled him. The first time I was unsure. So, I cautioned the defense not to tackle the QB unless he is acting like a runner.

Many experienced officials seeing a play for the first time will not flag it and caution the player(s) on the action. If is mildly illegal it will stop or the flag will be justified.

Maybe your white hat was looking to see if the play of the DE was legal or not.

As for a wingman throwing that flag. We would have a lot to discuss -- I talk, you listen -- at halftime. And if you pulled your flag and did not throw it, you would have to explain that action. One thing the videos will pick up is that "flag reach" but more important if any coach saw it from the sideline or the booth, they will be griping all night long.

In fact, I would rather you throw the flag because it can be picked up and an explanation offered to the coaches that the contact was legal after a conference.

[Mike Simonds]

I have encountered a few coaches that teach their players to contact the QB on every play whether he has the ball or not.

The referee is primarily responsible for protecting the QB on running and passing downs.

It is correct when the other posters state that the QB is fair game to a legal block or some other legal contact by the defense.

However, if it is obvious to the the defense that the QB no longer has the ball, then the covering official must call a foul for any illegal contact on the QB. This can take the form of an illegal block in the back, clip, block below the waist, etc. If it falls under the criteria for a personal foul then you can call that also.

In summary its a judgement decision.

[Rich]

If the referee thinks that this play (in his area) is legal, it's legal. For you to throw a flag there is wrong. To throw a flag you must be sure that something is a foul. If you are guessing or are unsure, it's not a foul. And if you're poaching out of your area, then you'll have more problems -- with coaches and especially your partners.

If you throw a flag there and the referee finds it to be a legal play, he will pick up your flag and have a nice chat with you, like Ed said.

The nice thing about football is that we don't have to and aren't expected to cover the entire field.

Speaking of white hat, I wore one tonight -- my first varsity white hat, although I've worn the hat many times at lower levels. 54-0 with a clock operator that understood how to ignore the habitual clock-stopping we all did, even though by rule the clock ran unstopped almost the entire second half.

And keep your hand away from your flag until you're 100% sure it's coming on the field. You'd be amazed at how coaches can see that -- it's almost like they're watching the officials or something

Rich

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Schultj
Last game I did, the QB handed the ball off on the first play of the game and the DE tackled him when I thought that it was obvious that he was out of the play. I had my flag out, but I didn't throw it because I thought that that should be the refs call not the wings, and I looked at him and he saw the hit but didn't throw the flag. Plus, I am relatively new, and the ref has been around for quite a while. Needless to say, this went on the whole game and the QB's coach was irrate. I asked the ref about it, and he said to let it go because the QB could potentially have the ball so the defense can tackle him. After this, the QB and his coach both got UC calls (the QB for swearing, the coach for his tyrade). Looking back on it, if I would have thrown that first flag, that could have prevented the whole situation. Any ideas on how to handle this in the future?

Good question Schultj. And great answers from everyone else. Especially the advice about “fishing in your own pond”. I’ve also had problems with reaching for my flag and then not tossing it. I got over this by first saying to myself “hey that's a foul, now that's a foul, oh yah that's a foul” and then going for my flag. And don't forget to continue to officiate.

[Forksref]

The white hat is responsible for the protection of the QB (whoever is passing) and the kicker. You could discuss the play with him later. As for hitting the QB when the ball is gone, I look at the time since it was thrown and the severity of the hit. A warning works wonders on the close ones where it is not severe. Every one is a judgment call.

I called roughing the passer the other night. The ball was gone and the hit was not severe but it was a blow to the helmet. The same severity of a blow to the body would not have been flagged.

As for crew chemistry and teamwork, don't 'steal' a call from another crew member who was in position.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Forksref
The white hat is responsible for the protection of the QB (whoever is passing) and the kicker. You could discuss the play with him later. As for hitting the QB when the ball is gone, I look at the time since it was thrown and the severity of the hit. A warning works wonders on the close ones where it is not severe. Every one is a judgment call.

I called roughing the passer the other night. The ball was gone and the hit was not severe but it was a blow to the helmet. The same severity of a blow to the body would not have been flagged.

As for crew chemistry and teamwork, don't 'steal' a call from another crew member who was in position.

The mechanic I use for all punts is once the ball is away yell out "Gone". If a player hits the QB after I get the word out, the flag is out.